Tank healing is to high

[MagiusNecros]

If SE isn't gonna let DRK have as much self healing, they should let us do as much damage as phys ranged.

Ideally if as a Tank you have shit defenses and no sustain your damage has to be strong. GNB has comparable DPS to DRK and amazing defenses in addition to not blowing a DPS resource on a defensive.

But since PvE is designed around having classes as balanced and homogenized as possible you run into a very big problem.

Living Dead has potential to be an amazing sustain option but is only active during the WD phase and gets shut off after you top yourself off or with healer assistance. Beyond that you only have Souleater. Abyssal Drain is locked to a 60 CD and shared with C&S so restrictive. PLD/GNB/WAR all have amazing sustain and defenses. Especially WAR.

DRK at some point will need it's defensives re-evaluated. Especially with how limited Dark Mind is as a whole. And the skill acquisition of certain skills such as Dark Missionary.

It's very clear that the devs are very reliant on TBN but has aged poorly due to the TBN competitors from other Tanks.

[AprilHanabira]

Ideally if as a Tank you have shit defenses and no sustain your damage has to be strong. GNB has comparable DPS to DRK and amazing defenses in addition to not blowing a DPS resource on a defensive.

But since PvE is designed around having classes as balanced and homogenized as possible you run into a very big problem.

Living Dead has potential to be an amazing sustain option but is only active during the WD phase and gets shut off after you top yourself off or with healer assistance. Beyond that you only have Souleater. Abyssal Drain is locked to a 60 CD and shared with C&S so restrictive. PLD/GNB/WAR all have amazing sustain and defenses. Especially WAR.

DRK at some point will need it's defensives re-evaluated. Especially with how limited Dark Mind is as a whole. And the skill acquisition of certain skills such as Dark Missionary.

It's very clear that the devs are very reliant on TBN but has aged poorly due to the TBN competitors from other Tanks.

but drk outside of opener burst phase, have a very simple rotation, dark art is up pretty much all the time, and theres no restriction to use ogcd right away while gnb has to do their gnashing fang every 30second and every single continuation after each gcd, now with burst strike... if u saying aurora and hoc healing are too strong, how strong, aurora proc about 6-7 times over 18seconds for what, 3k heal each, hoc proc for about 20k and p4s aa deals about 16k per hit, p3s hit about 12-16k per hit... the devs ain't balancing the jobs based on some 4man dungeon runs... even war seem busted in dungeon because of multiple hits healing from bloodwheeting.. mean nothing in high end content,

[Shurrikhan]

but drk outside of opener burst phase, have a very simple rotation, dark art is up pretty much all the time, and theres no restriction to use ogcd right away while gnb has to do their gnashing fang every 30second and every single continuation after each gcd, now with burst strike... if u saying aurora and hoc healing are too strong, how strong, aurora proc about 6-7 times over 18seconds for what, 3k heal each, hoc proc for about 20k and p4s aa deals about 16k per hit, p3s hit about 12-16k per hit...

Dark Arts is not up "all the time" (perhaps you meant Darkside?) and Aurora's 1200p healing is still 1200p more than what DRK has outside of AoE (and thus Abyssal Drain), while Solid Barrel's heal is likewise 33.3% stronger a sustain tool than Souleater, so long as the shield is consumed before the next combo.

Incoming damage is the same for all tanks but DRK (which takes more in practice due to the relative underperformance of TBN+Oblation against higher damage totals over the given 8 seconds covered by one's on-demand and tends to mitigate slightly less damage per minute in similarly damage-intense situations), so I'm not sure why you're bringing that up.

That Warrior may exist as an outlier in terms of sustain, moreover, does not make DRK's lack of sustain any less an issue. (Nor is Bloodwhetting's ability to get multiple heals per GCD based on target count relevant to 8-man content, to which virtually all serious encounters are limited.)

It's very clear that the devs are very reliant on TBN but has aged poorly due to the TBN competitors from other Tanks.

That's a bit like saying that Heart of Stone has aged poorly due to Heart of Corundum. The level 70 skill is not the reason for the level 82+ problem. The level 82 skill (Oblation) is. That particular lv82+ mitigation issue really is as simple as just buffing the lv82 skill. Buff Oblation. Done.

[MagiusNecros]

That's a bit like saying that Heart of Stone has aged poorly due to Heart of Corundum. The level 70 skill is not the reason for the level 82+ problem. The level 82 skill (Oblation) is. That particular lv82+ mitigation issue really is as simple as just buffing the lv82 skill. Buff Oblation. Done.

Heart of Stone actually has aged greatly because it was upgraded to Heart of Corundum. Absurd statement on your part.

The issue you have with TBN at 82 onwards is the lack of engagement with using defensives at the right time given the other 3 Tanks have 4 seconds of effectively increased DR when they pop their main Defensive in HoC/HS/BW.

Which these Tanks have additional DR, damage shields, regens, GCD heals, excog effects.

Meanwhile the only addition with Oblation is a flat 10% DR and that's it. TBN hasn't aged in any way and is effectively worse given it costs MP while the other skills cost effectively nothing. PLD you could argue about with gauge but that's completely passive acquisition on it's own and isn't tied to MP in any way.

And I must state that damage shields and damage reduction are 2 separate entities and interact differently.

At best TBN is just temporary HP that you lose after about 5 seconds.

The lvl82 competitors have a big advantage in being pure mitigation and self healing while DRK offers none of that and wants you to take a lot of damage so you can use Dragoon's Heavy Thrust for free and be MP neutral.

TLDR buff Oblation to 20% DR and it would probably be fine. Although I do think at this stage TBN should just be free just like the other skills or you buff TBN to not cost MP and put the 15%-20% DR on one skill.

And if it has to cost MP you remove the CD completely so it can be used on demand.

Having a Tank that operates defensively specifically on Damage Shields would be some form of identity.

[Yeastyloins]

Heart of Stone actually has aged greatly because it was upgraded to Heart of Corundum. Absurd statement on your part.

The issue you have with TBN at 82 onwards is the lack of engagement with using defensives at the right time given the other 3 Tanks have 4 seconds of effectively increased DR when they pop their main Defensive in HoC/HS/BW.

Which these Tanks have additional DR, damage shields, regens, GCD heals, excog effects.

Meanwhile the only addition with Oblation is a flat 10% DR and that's it. TBN hasn't aged in any way and is effectively worse given it costs MP while the other skills cost effectively nothing. PLD you could argue about with gauge but that's completely passive acquisition on it's own and isn't tied to MP in any way.

And I must state that damage shields and damage reduction are 2 separate entities and interact differently.

At best TBN is just temporary HP that you lose after about 5 seconds.

The lvl82 competitors have a big advantage in being pure mitigation and self healing while DRK offers none of that and wants you to take a lot of damage so you can use Dragoon's Heavy Thrust for free and be MP neutral.

TLDR buff Oblation to 20% DR and it would probably be fine. Although I do think at this stage TBN should just be free just like the other skills or you buff TBN to not cost MP and put the 15%-20% DR on one skill.

And if it has to cost MP you remove the CD completely so it can be used on demand.

Having a Tank that operates defensively specifically on Damage Shields would be some form of identity.

I mean I think one way to balance that is to make other defenses have gauge costs associated with them like how TBN has its 3k MP cost. It would makes sense to me if Heat of Corundum cost a cartridge or say each of the WAR's heals (Bloodwhetting, Equilibrium, Nascent Flash) having a gauge requirement. I'd also go as far to suggest something like Bloodwhetting consumes your whole gauge and the potency/duration is determined by the amount consumed with you getting the current iteration of the ability by consuming 100 gauge.

[MagiusNecros]

I mean I think one way to balance that is to make other defenses have gauge costs associated with them like how TBN has its 3k MP cost. It would makes sense to me if Heat of Corundum cost a cartridge or say each of the WAR's heals (Bloodwhetting, Equilibrium, Nascent Flash) having a gauge requirement. I'd also go as far to suggest something like Bloodwhetting consumes your whole gauge and the potency/duration is determined by the amount consumed with you getting the current iteration of the ability by consuming 100 gauge.

I'd be all for some actual gauge management given how simple things are getting.

[Shurrikhan]

Heart of Stone actually has aged greatly because it was upgraded to Heart of Corundum. Absurd statement on your part.

And where was TBN's upgrade? You're saying the level 70 skill has "aged poorly" because it's not a.... level 82 skill (a la Bloodwhetting, Holy Shelltron, or Heart of Corundum).

That is an absurd statement.

What you need to look at instead is specifically Oblation's value versus the difference between Heart of Stone and Heart of Corundom, Shelltron and Holy Shelltron, or Raw Intuition and Bloodwhetting.

The issue you have with TBN at 82 onwards...

...is that people can't stop conflating things. It's still the same skill you had at level 70. No more, no less. Camouflage was not nerfed by staying at its present power across 84 levels; neither has TBN's by remaining the same for 20.

That DRK's lv82 addition (Oblation) is weaker than, say, Paladin's lv82 addition (Knight's Benediction and Knight's Resolve) is a separate (and the only) mitigation issue. The four jobs' mitigation were pretty balanced before. Giving three of them stronger bonuses, then, than the last does put that last one behind, all without having to retroactively nerf its pre-lv82 kit upon its reaching lv82. Shocking, I know.



As for TBN itself...

TBN should just be free

This can only result in either of two things: Reduced flexibility (higher CD) and reduced gameplay interaction (removed DA) as you remove its more negotiable and knowledge-rewarding constraint, or DRK's damage must now be balanced around popping a TBN every 15 to 25 seconds for a free 1104 to 1840 extra potency per minute. Neither outcome is good.

And if it has to cost MP you remove the CD completely so it can be used on demand.

Please tell me you understand how much cheese that could apply to, say, DSR, when two DRKs could thereby simultaneously TBN every non-tank.

[MagiusNecros]

And where was TBN's upgrade? It's still the same skill you had at level 70. No more, no less.

You just explained why it aged poorly. If you can't process that then case closed.

As for TBN if it can be used to cheese things I have no problem with this given Warrior's ability to cheese dungeons and clear a multitude of fights without a healer.

But hey go ahead and get frustrated at my expense.

It's been a shitshow for DRK ever since Shadowbringers and it all started this death spiral in Stormblood.

[Shurrikhan]

You just explained why it aged poorly. If you can't process that then case closed.

No, I explained why it has nothing to do with the problem at hand.

Compare DRK's Endwalker addition to the others' Endwalker additions (instead of pretending that prior defensive skills suddenly got weaker after X level). That's it. It's not complicated.

Here are the tanks and what they get at level 82 for their new defensive:

• DRK - Oblation - 10% miti for 10 seconds on a 60s recharge (2 charges). [This, by the way, is simply not as powerful as any of the options below. Which has nothing to do with TBN, Dark Mind, Abyssal Drain, Camouflage, Aurora, Heart of Stone, Thrill of Battle, Raw Intuition, Nascent Flash, Equilibrium, or Shelltron.]
  
  
• PLD - Knight's Benediction, Knight's Resolve - 1000cp HoT, 15% mitigation for 4 seconds. Available per 22.4 seconds.
  
  
• WAR - Stem the Tide, Stem the Flow - 400cp shield, 15% mitigation for 4 seconds. Available per 25 seconds.
  
  
• GNB - Catharsis of Corundum, Clarity of Corundum - 900cp Excog, 15% mitigation for 4 seconds. Available per 25 seconds.

You don't fix an imbalance that only occurs upon reaching level 82 by going back and "fixing" (homogenizing and/or overbuffing) an expansions-earlier skill. That would make no more sense than trimming either Catharsis or Clarity from HoC and then buffing Camouflage instead.

You already said it yourself: Oblation is what needs the buff. Stop blaming the prior skill for a mitigation imbalance of this expansion alone.

It's beyond suspicious, frankly. Apply that logic to any other job that performed fine in the previous expansion but underperforms now, declaring that its prior kit (not simply the lackluster additions) is the problem. Add that to your insistence on homogenizing TBN and frankly, you seem to have ulterior motives there.

Sure, you may not like what makes DRK's defensives unique. And that's okay. But if you're going to point fingers at what already worked just fine in place of the actual reason staring you in the face for an imbalance only after lv82, don't pretend that what you're suggesting comes from a concern for balance.

Tl;dr: do you want further imbalance in pre-cap Ultimates and further homogeneity among tanks' defensives? Because what you're suggesting how you get both.

[MagiusNecros]

That's what I've been saying.

Raw Intuition > Blood Whetting (25s CD)

Sheltron > Holy Sheltron (50 Oath)

Heart of Stone > Heart of Corundum (25s CD)

Oblation (60s CD with 2 charges in total 120s CD overall)

And to get the most out of Oblation you should pair it up with TBN. To the point it feels like TBN and Oblation should be baked into one skill.

Especially given the recurring concerns on button bloat.

There really is no reason why Oblation doesn't have the associated bonuses the other lvl82 skills have.

But this is just another case of DRK being stuck in ShB and only receiving some QoL over time they should of have multiple xpacs ago.

Look forward to Oblation changes in 7.0 maybe?