*Spoilers* Anyone feel joining Emet would have been better

[Lyth]

Creation magic cannot be used to make a person with a soul. Meteion could experience others' emotions, being an entelechy, but they were never her own. Like the Elpis blooms, she was only a reflection of the ambient emotion, so she just ended up being a conduit that. So I wonder if you actually can make a creation that's capable of acting against the prevailing emotion (i.e. something that can interact with dynamis that can also resist being influenced by it). A spark of joy in an ocean of despair.

I think the closest that you can get is to make a hemitheos, which I suspect became the basis for Zodiark/Elidibus' later design. But I suppose we'll find out whether that's a smart idea pretty soon.

Either way, Creation magic is just one tool out of many. Remember, the Loporrits can use it as well, so it's hardly a mark of omnipotence.

[Alenore]

They could not. They were not immediately affected by Meteion's song on Etheirys, but ANY of their creations can be warped and turned against them. Given that the creation magics you so extol make up most of the ancients' attempts to solve problems, this means they could not do much of anything against her. In addition, aetheric density means little when 63% of the energy in the universe is being directed at you as a "you no longer exist" beam. The only reason why aetheric beings can survive in Ultima Thule is if they're able to manipulate dynamis to counteract Meteion's hold over it.

Even if the ancients had reached Ultima Thule, they'd suffocate to death and have nothing to stand on to reach and fight her.

So, sundered being can go to Ultima Thule and defeat Meteion, a being with an aether density similar to ours in Elpis, but actual Entelechy able to manipulate Dynamis consciously infused with the hope and will to live of the Ancient race couldn't?
Literally the issue started because one of the ancient creations went wrong, so saying "their creation is no use against dynamis" is funny.

63% of the energy in the universe is Dynamis, it doesn't mean she's manipulating 63% of the energy. Neither do ancients manipulate the rest because it's Aether.

Creation magic cannot be used to make a person with a soul. Meteion could experience others' emotions, being an entelechy, but they were never her own. Like the Elpis blooms, she was only a reflection of the ambient emotion, so she just ended up being a conduit that. So I wonder if you actually can make a creation that's capable of acting against the prevailing emotion (i.e. something that can interact with dynamis that can also resist being influenced by it). A spark of joy in an ocean of despair.

I think the closest that you can get is to make a hemitheos, which I suspect became the basis for Zodiark/Elidibus' later design. But I suppose we'll find out whether that's a smart idea pretty soon.

Either way, Creation magic is just one tool out of many. Remember, the Loporrits can use it as well, so it's hardly a mark of omnipotence.

That's wrong. Lupins have souls and were made by creation magick. So were Arkasoa. Hell, we even created one through alchemical processes for the Anima weapon.
They mention that any lifeform may have a soul, but they don't control which one do: it's literally just the domain of nature, and if the creation is close enough to natural, it'll get a soul. It's the difference between arcane entities and living beings.

[Dikatis]

So, sundered being can go to Ultima Thule and defeat Meteion, a being with an aether density similar to ours in Elpis, but actual Entelechy able to manipulate Dynamis consciously infused with the hope and will to live of the Ancient race couldn't?
Literally the issue started because one of the ancient creations went wrong, so saying "their creation is no use against dynamis" is funny.

63% of the energy in the universe is Dynamis, it doesn't mean she's manipulating 63% of the energy. Neither do ancients manipulate the rest because it's Aether.

Meteion was not imbued with the "hope" and "will" of the ancients. She was a space probe designed to possess exceedingly little aether (even less than ours) specifically to better respond to emotions and harness dynamis so she would not need sustenance on her long space voyages. And yes, she did succumb to despair and was consumed by the negative emotions she was forced to absorb due to her uncontrollable empathic powers, resulting in her becoming the source of the Final Days and transforming other creations into terminus beasts. The science of creating entelechies was also lost when Hermes abandoned his project after "Meteion's death".

Her final plan was to silence all of creation by preventing any new life from forming, thus sparing herself the agony of people succumbing to despair. The only way she'd be able to do that from Ultima Thule is if she's gathering dynamis from the entire universe to strengthen her Song of Despair.

Also, you plan to defeat Meteion is... to create more Meteions?

[KageTokage]

Meteion was not imbued with the "hope" and "will" of the ancients. She was a space probe designed to possess exceedingly little aether (even less than ours) specifically to better respond to emotions and harness dynamis so she would not need sustenance on her long space voyages. And yes, she did succumb to despair and was consumed by the negative emotions she was forced to absorb due to her uncontrollable empathic powers, resulting in her becoming the source of the Final Days and transforming other creations into terminus beasts. The science of creating entelechies was also lost when Hermes abandoned his project after "Meteion's death".

Her final plan was to silence all of creation by preventing any new life from forming, thus sparing herself the agony of people succumbing to despair. The only way she'd be able to do that from Ultima Thule is if she's gathering dynamis from the entire universe to strengthen her Song of Despair.

Also, you plan to defeat Meteion is... to create more Meteions?

The science behind entelechies was not lost, Venat just assumed Hermes wouldn't be interested in making any more after he rewrote his memory to convince himself Meteion had self-terminated. I think he would change his mind if he had actually known that dynamis was the factor behind the Final Days.

Also, Meteion was specifically designed to exchange emotion so that she could communicate with alien races without need of words, which is the critical factor that led to her going haywire. There's nothing that seems to indicate that making a creation that can manipulate dynamis without that function would be impossible as it's simply a low aether density that is needed fundamentally.

Alenore's point was that maybe they could've made entelechy specifically imbued with positive emotions that could counteract the negative ones the Endsinger was turning against the world. Heck, they might've not even needed Zodiark judging from how strong of a force the collective wills of just the Scions was in the finale and could've made some kind of entelechy barrier instead.

[Dikatis]

The science behind entelechies was not lost, Venat just assumed Hermes wouldn't be interested in making any more after he rewrote his memory to convince himself Meteion had self-terminated. I think he would change his mind if he had actually known that dynamis was the factor behind the Final Days.

Also, Meteion was specifically designed to exchange emotion so that she could communicate with alien races without need of words, which is the critical factor that led to her going haywire. There's nothing that seems to indicate that making a creation that can manipulate dynamis without that function would be impossible as it's simply a low aether density that is needed fundamentally.

Alenore's point was that maybe they could've made entelechy specifically imbued with positive emotions that could counteract the negative ones the Endsinger was turning against the world. Heck, they might've not even needed Zodiark judging from how strong of a force the collective wills of just the Scions was in the finale and could've made some kind of entelechy barrier instead.

The only one with the expertise to create entelechies is Hermes. And if Venat told Hermes it's highly likely that he'd leap off the deep end and start sabotaging humanity's efforts to combat the Final Days.

The Scions are also sundered beings with a much stronger attunement to dynamis than the unsundered ancients. There's no guarantee that they'd even be able to render Ultima Thule inhabitable long enough for them to defeat Meteion.

[KageTokage]

What I find absolutely hilarious about these 'What if' scenarios is that the power is entirely in the hands of the writers. If they're not interested in you saving Amaurot, then you can't and you won't. They can come up with any number of reasons why it won't work, because they set down the rules for this in-game world. It's a bit like arguing with your DM. 'Oh, you reminded Hermes' about Meteion? Tsk, tsk, shouldn't have done that, now. He's gone and betrayed you, and his creation, Zodiark, is now a blasphemy, so Amaurot still falls. Tooo bad. Want to try again? We can go at this all day.'

Lore is about understanding the world that the writers are creating, not trying to control it.

I mean...that's kind of a given, but I'm still left feeling unconvinced there was really no better option then the Sundering just because "the writers said so"; particularly when it still took significant amounts of intervention both direct and indirect on the part of the Ancients for us to succeed in the first place. A story's lore shouldn't be leaving you with feelings like that in the first place if it's well written and cohesive.

They explained enough about the nature of dynamis that it came across as a force that could be reasonably harnessed in a variety of ways given proper understanding of it...and the Ancients had geniuses like Elidibus who was able to simulate the Crystal Tower's time travel functions though magick simply via analysis.

[Lyth]

...

Lv. 86 'Lives Apart':

Hermes: 'Tell me─do you know the difference between living beings and arcane entities? It is the presence of a soul.

Yet the soul isn't something you can choose to have at will. No, it manifests only in those beings whose forms adhere to the laws of creation. That can endure on their own. Beings that do not fulfill this requirement, such as those spontaneously born of magic or natural phenomena, do not have souls. No matter how much it might resemble flora or fauna, if it lacks a soul, then it is considered an arcane entity.

So you see, it is not for mankind to decide what is living. That domain lies beyond our manipulation, and it is hubris to assume otherwise.'

There is, of course, a caveat to this:

'Hythlodaeus stretched out a hand to the enormous gate that stood before them. Soundlessly, the towering doors swung open... and Hades found himself wincing at the ear-rending cry that emanated from within. Furrowing his brow, he stepped across the threshold to be greeted with the sight of a magnificent bird, its plumes fairly afire, circling high in the vaulted hall. Having marked the creature's undeniable beauty, it took him but another moment to identify the problem ─ an unmistakable light shining in its heart. His breath caught in his throat.

"A soul... How?"

Through their mastery of creation magicks, men could weave anything into existence. Anything they could imagine, they could bring forth ─ anything, that is, except a soul. As Hades well knew, souls spontaneously manifested within creatures that were born in accordance with the laws of nature. It was a gift from the star itself, long held to be impossible to recreate. No artificial being, no matter how subtly sculpted in the image of nature, could come to possess a soul. Such creations occupied a separate classification known as arcane entities.

"There was an accident," Hythlodaeus began. "During the concept's examination, a drifting soul merged with it ─ a soul burdened with regret, judging by the being's behavior. It rages against the pull of the Underworld."

Creation magic can create only vessels, not souls. Souls without a vessel can latch to an available one, which underpins Ascian bodyswaps, Voidsent summoning, the hemitheos, and likely also Zodiark's construction.

[Alleo]

So, sundered being can go to Ultima Thule and defeat Meteion, a being with an aether density similar to ours in Elpis, but actual Entelechy able to manipulate Dynamis consciously infused with the hope and will to live of the Ancient race couldn't?
Literally the issue started because one of the ancient creations went wrong, so saying "their creation is no use against dynamis" is funny.

63% of the energy in the universe is Dynamis, it doesn't mean she's manipulating 63% of the energy. Neither do ancients manipulate the rest because it's Aether.

First the problem is that at least a Entelechy like Meteion cant just be infused with one kind of emotion and be done with that. Otherwise Meteion and her sisters would have not changed after all since they were sent out by a (naive) optimistic Hermes that hoped for better answers. So as soon as these beings are outside the reach of their creators they can be changed. This is after all what happened to Meteions sisters.

And second even if they were still full of hope when reaching Ultima Thule, they would need the experience to overcome the despair of each race there. It was important who confronted the being. Would a Entelechy who might have never really suffered much really be able to understand and overcome the sorrow of the dragons? Estinien could because he himself went through something similiar.

What about the Ea? How would a Entelechy react if they found out that even the universe was finite? Meteion is still alive after 12.000 years so I guess even familiars could possibly be immortal if they survive long enough. How would such a being react when they found out that all will be gone? The scions, especially Ysthola, were able to overcome that despair because they were mortals who knew perfectly well that they will not last long.

So imo there is more to it than just either sundering some Ancients and sending them there or creating more "Meteions". They would need the experience to be able to withstand and overcome these specific despairs. After all, even we would have perished right at the start if it was not for Thancred and his will.

Alenore's point was that maybe they could've made entelechy specifically imbued with positive emotions that could counteract the negative ones the Endsinger was turning against the world. Heck, they might've not even needed Zodiark judging from how strong of a force the collective wills of just the Scions was in the finale and could've made some kind of entelechy barrier instead.

But these Entelechy would need a huuuuuge amount of positive energy to stand any chance at all. It took a big amount of the remaining Ancients and their near inifite aether reserves to bascially buy humanity time by summoning Zodiark. After all we are talking about a really big amount of destroyed worlds full of despair that Meteion gathered.

And even if somehow the Ancients were able to create beings that could shield their planet, what would be the long term solution? Meteion would still be out there gathering despair and the created Entelechy would just need one weakness and it would be over for them.

The scions were also not that strong because of just hope but because they bascially were able to overcome the different kind of despairs that Meteion was throwing at them. If Thancred had not been with us then we would have bascially died before even stepping on Ultima Thule. If we had not Estinien, none may have overcome the despair of the dragons and so on. Hope alone did not save us there, it was the luck of having the people with the right experiences with us. And if it was not for our crystal they too would have died.