What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[YukikoKurosawa]

That's why I don't see rejoinings as genocide, because none of the shards cease to exist. They get added to the source where they belong. I also don't view adding Ardbert's soul to mine as erasing Ardbert or overwriting my WoL. I view it as gluing Azem back together. But this Azem will not be the Azem from ancient times. It will also not be the WoL or Ardbert. It will be Azem with the memories and personality traits and senses of self of both the WoL and Ardbert.

I'm pretty sure that's not true. I'm pretty sure rejoining means the consciousness of the shard soul gets dissolved leaving only the source version's ego. This would explain why we never hear the voices of the 7 people rejoined with us (the 7th during our lifetime), they don't exist anymore, just the aether of their/our soul merged back with us. Ardbert's silence since 5.3 suggests he's probably ceased to exist by now.

So yeah it's worse than genocide it's the total cessation of existence for everyone on the rejoined shard.

But maybe I'm putting more thought into this than the writer's did. A shame if it's true, Ardbert could've been kept around as a recurring character that only we can see/hear and talk to, occassionally manifesting and talking to us.

[KizuyaKatogami]

Not the circumstances of our creation!" Ryne also states in the Eden questline "You won't even give us a chance to make something for ourselves."

It's not so simple a situation as broken pieces of a vase. Those shards may not be able to create life on the scale that their predecessors can, but they can do some pretty incredible things. They are also physically capable of manipulating dynamis directly. Something the Ancients simply cannot do.

Tbf Alphinaud says a lot of stupid shit that he never backs up. For example he says this in ShB: "But what value is there in surviving when all our history, all our struggles will be erased? I cannot conscience such an act."Meanwhile he’s nothing but googly eyes for venat/hydaelyn and doesn’t call her out whatsoever.

As for Ryne’s comment… That’s exactly what Emet selch did for years, and he saw how flawed the sundered were, their fragility being what ends up breaking him and solidifying his stance.

As for doing incredible things….like what exactly? Almost every feat we and the sundered do is because of higher up entities helping us. Manipulating dynamis is utterly useless in 99.9% of situations because aether is stronger than it. Even disregarding that the lore on it is wonky. Venat sundered them to be able to manipulate dynamis yet we, the WoL have no problem manipulating it despite being what, 8/14? 9/14? Also if we go with the lb=dynamis theory supported by Meteion, then the ancients can indeed manipulate it, it’s just a matter of honing that skill.

[Raoabolic]

That is what I'd been wanting after Shadowbringers. Find a way to rejoin souls without rejoining the whole planet and causing calamities like floods and diseases.

However, after Endwalker we could just avoid all of that. Avoid all the moral gray areas, all the genocide, all the suffering, the question of whether rejoining souls is good or bad by simply preventing all of that from happening in the first place. Here's what I would do if my character wasn't tempered by Hydaelyn and I could do whatever the fuck I want:

Step 1: Ignore Venat when she says not to help or tell Emet-Selch what happened.
Step 2: Travel to Sharlayan and ask G'raha where exactly in the Crystal Tower he left all the documentation on time travel.
Step 3: Travel to the first and find the time travel documents.
Step 4: Make copies.
Step 5: Travel to Elpis and ask for directions to Amaurot.
Step 6: Travel to Amaurot and request an audience with Emet-Selch because it concerns the survival of the star.
Step 7 Optional quest fluff: Get denied an audience because "who are you? Emet-Selch doesn't have time to talk to children."
Step 8 optional quest fluff: Wait for Emet-Selch to finish work and stalk him home or instead go to the bureau of the architect and request an audience with Hythlodaeus to put in a good word for you to talk with Emet-Selch.
Step 9: Ask Emet-Selch to use the Echo to look into your memories and see what happened in Elpis.
Step 10: See Emet-Selch despair.
Step 11: Tell Emet-Selch, "no worries, I got you babe. Here are documents that detail how to travel back in time. Just set up a time portal like Elidibus did in my time and get Hermes some professional help in a mental hospital preferably with rubber walls and some mechanism to prevent him from using creation Magicks before he can create all the Meteion sisters."
Step 12: Emet-Selch rewards you with sweet love making.

No Meteion, no final days, no other planets succumbing to the end singer, no sacrifice, no zodiark, no Hydaelyn, no sundering, no rejoining, no choosing between one life over the other. Just good old saving the world with things that are already established to be possible in canon.

Step 13: All the major leaders in Eorza go "YOU DID WHAT?!" as they gaussian blur out of existence followed by the source and all it's shards
Step 14: new game +

[Xirean]

Tbf Alphinaud says a lot of stupid shit that he never backs up. For example he says this in ShB: "But what value is there in surviving when all our history, all our struggles will be erased? I cannot conscience such an act."Meanwhile he’s nothing but googly eyes for venat/hydaelyn and doesn’t call her out whatsoever.

As for Ryne’s comment… That’s exactly what Emet selch did for years, and he saw how flawed the sundered were, their fragility being what ends up breaking him and solidifying his stance.

As for doing incredible things….like what exactly? Almost every feat we and the sundered do is because of higher up entities helping us. Manipulating dynamis is utterly useless in 99.9% of situations because aether is stronger than it. Even disregarding that the lore on it is wonky. Venat sundered them to be able to manipulate dynamis yet we, the WoL have no problem manipulating it despite being what, 8/14? 9/14? Also if we go with the lb=dynamis theory supported by Meteion, then the ancients can indeed manipulate it, it’s just a matter of honing that skill.

The LB thing is a bit of a issue I'll give you that. I mainly took that moment as the WoL's LB is dynamis. Elidibus is channeling A LOT of WoL's and they can all manipulate dynamis. Hades and Venat are really the only two that stick out as questionable and that's fair to point them out. Maybe theirs work differently. Venat's certainly looks different.

Emet created the empire explicitly to create endless conflict on the star. He says as much when we first see him in the post StB cutscenes. Either way if he was trying to give the Sundered a chance for many years prior to doing so. Good. But his conclusion that he has the right to judge and destroy them is wrong.

A lot of dumb things are said and happen around Hydaelyn. I'm not happy about it either. Regardless Alphinaud stating that he wouldn't want to live in a rejoined world because it would effectively erase the existing history and culture is completely fair. It's his history and culture, he has a right to try to defend it.

Your mention of higher ups helping the sundered is precisely why I want to see where the story goes from here. No more help, no more training wheels. No more outside influence. Creating their own civilizations is still something the sundered did without help, though. They also built their own spaceships; one of which can reach the edge of the universe. Some discovered how to summon dark souls from the void realm, that didn't come with outside influence. Oh let's also not forget a time machine.

[Lauront]

Understand exaggeration, first of all. Also your reductionist argument doesn't make these takes not hypocritical.

Personally, I don't see how it's hypocritical without considering the specific viewpoint in question. Sure, if Theodric were asking for the story to completely gloss over the Rejoinings and their effects (Void, First, 7UC, 8UC say hi), and treat them as unambiguously justified/good, even from the point of view of characters shown with conflicting perspectives, as the game has done with the Sundering (going so far as to stick any visual demonstration of its effects in a crossover...), that would be hypocritical (and I would not desire that kind of narrative gaslighting), but to claim it is in the absence of such an argument, assumes he (we, for that matter) has (have) the same complaints as other people dissatisfied with the story.

It is, rather, the fact that the game pushes some very specious arguments to justify the Sundering and tries to shut down any criticism or divergence in perspectives on it that is at the root of Theodric's complaint. The writers made the very strange decision to also lay the Rejoinings at Venat's feet while still maintaining she's not the "bad guy", while comparing her to SHB Emet, which Yoshi, even as he tried to render him sympathetic, called a "villain" in several interviews... it's this dissonance that is at the root of our dissatisfaction, both in-game and in the answers the writers give. The arguments Teraq and I have put forward also do not make the claim that the Rejoinings are good for the sundered, as such, but rather why they were compelling as a course of action to the Ascians - last remnants of their people, to whom they owed a duty as their leaders to not let them go extinct - and for some of us, RPGs/similar games are interesting "what if" exercises. The reasoning behind the actions is different so obviously not everyone is going to evaluate them the same way and, like I said, my preference is for the ancients/Ascians. I can't speak for others or their arguments, but that's how I understand Theodric sees it, and how I see it. Others can explain their reasoning as they see fit.

Of course, these are theoretical arguments at this point in time about something which is a done deal... going forwards, I'd like to see the writers clear up their writing, whether it is through an AU or not.

I don't believe that was their plan since it's one line that's inconsistent with all other information. During the lift cutscene Emet tells the WoL that should we survive the remaining calamities we will become their equal, a complete existence in a complete world. Later, in one of the 5.x patches, Alisaie comments on having memories of her Ancient self at the edge of her mind upon seeing the star showers, but can't fully remember likely due to being sundered. Even without the context of EW (where we learn souls sacrificed to Zodiark are indefinitely trapped within), the implication seems to be that the sundered when returned to being whole would also have their memories/identities restored. It makes Emet's statement counterproductive. However, I have no doubt they intended to sacrifice non-Ancient lives to Zodiark as that was the original plan for the 3rd sacrifice.

As far as rejoinings, they're still an extinction event for the shard. I can't deny that. The question is more which should take precedence, the "fleeting" life of a mortal or the eternal soul of a nigh immortal Ancient? The issue being if you favor the former then the crime of the sundering is endless. As much as I would like to see Etheirys restored, like I said, I would've tried to find a gentler way to do it.

Yup, well said.

[KizuyaKatogami]

The LB thing is a bit of a issue I'll give you that. I mainly took that moment as the WoL's LB is dynamis. Elidibus is channeling A LOT of WoL's and they can all manipulate dynamis. Hades and Venat are really the only two that stick out as questionable and that's fair to point them out. Maybe theirs work differently. Venat's certainly looks different.

Emet created the empire explicitly to create endless conflict on the star. He says as much when we first see him in the post StB cutscenes. Either way if he was trying to give the Sundered a chance for many years prior to doing so. Good. But his conclusion that he has the right to judge and destroy them is wrong.

A lot of dumb things are said and happen around Hydaelyn. I'm not happy about it either. Regardless Alphinaud stating that he wouldn't want to live in a rejoined world because it would effectively erase the existing history and culture is completely fair. It's his history and culture, he has a right to try to defend it.

Your mention of higher ups helping the sundered is precisely why I want to see where the story goes from here. No more help, no more training wheels. No more outside influence. Creating their own civilizations is still something the sundered did without help, though. They also built their own spaceships; one of which can reach the edge of the universe. Some discovered how to summon dark souls from the void realm, that didn't come with outside influence. Oh let's also not forget a time machine.

The time machine was from higher up help though lol. It was an ascian who helped awaken alexander and omega is an unsundered entity.We still do have outside influence, we still have the blessing. We still have the azem crystal. Hell, they relied on a giant primal for 12k+ years to defend them from Meteion.

Imo i think Emet does have a right to do that. These people are living at the expense of his own, and their lives only last a tiny minuscule fraction that the ancient lives last. It’s numbers. Again, statistically, leaving the sundered world as it is is causing more death in the long run than a one and done rejoining would. I’m not saying the sundered don’t technically have a right to defend themselves, but the ascians/ancients have that same right because it’s one group of people existing at the other’s expense.

[Xirean]

The time machine was from higher up help though lol. It was an ascian who helped awaken alexander and omega is an unsundered entity.We still do have outside influence, we still have the blessing. We still have the azem crystal. Hell, they relied on a giant primal for 12k+ years to defend them from Meteion.

Imo i think Emet does have a right to do that. These people are living at the expense of his own, and their lives only last a tiny minuscule fraction that the ancient lives last. It’s numbers. Again, statistically, leaving the sundered world as it is is causing more death in the long run than a one and done rejoining would. I’m not saying the sundered don’t technically have a right to defend themselves, but the ascians/ancients have that same right because it’s one group of people existing at the other’s expense.

Then you are justifying genocide. Congratulations, you played yourself. I'm done with you.

[KizuyaKatogami]

Then you are justifying genocide. Congratulations, you played yourself. I'm done with you.

Except it’s more complicated than that. I didn’t play anything lmao. It’s genocide either way whether you let the sundered world continue or bring back the ancients. I guess some people can’t handle complexity though and need to simplify things. Kudos to you for that i suppose?

[Raoabolic]

Then you are justifying genocide. Congratulations, you played yourself. I'm done with you.

Genocide means you are mass killing something you can relate to. Emet sees the WoL and his kind as ants. Killing an ant colony isn't genocide. It's a jerk move at absolute worst and dealing with pests at best.

[Theodric]

Then you are justifying genocide. Congratulations, you played yourself. I'm done with you.

It's fiction. None of it is real. The characters are pixels on a screen.

The attempts to try and portray people as 'wrong' or 'bad' for favouring darker stories in a video game are little more than the same sort of puritan attempts to try and declare that video games should be banned because they inspire violence.

If you, yourself, feel that you'll go out and commit genocide because a character you support in a video game did the same thing then fair enough. Personally I have more faith in people to not assume that because they join the Dark Brotherhood in an Elder Scrolls game then that is equal to advocating support for paid assassinations.