What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[Lauront]

This. The unsundered Ascians are the heroes of their tale and of the Ancient world as a whole.



Everything I've seen and heard from Yoshi-P he is the polar opposite of me, so perhaps I shouldn't be surprised that Azem has been irritatingly imbued with a similar personality. Some of his takes are atrociously bad. He doesn't understand why people could forgive Emet and not Hermes, really? He compares Venat to both Emet and Hermes, considered actual villains in the franchise, but then wants to communicate she's not a "bad guy"? I could go on, like his favorite character being Alphinaud and him crying incessantly over the Mothercrystal cutscene. I don't think we'd agree on anything in terms of story and characters.

I think the worst part is that everything to do with the Ancients is the foundation of the game's lore, but the implication is he wanted to be done with it because it's not interesting to him/the 'team'. First, that's a Hell of a thing to not be interested in exploring your own lore. Second, just because he doesn't want to doesn't mean players don't love it. The Ancients blow everything else out of the water in popularity polls. I understand to an extent in terms of not having a passion for it, but I'm personally not interested in playing just what Yoshi-P likes when we don't like the same things. I loved Maehiro's work in HW and Ishikawa when she has the creative freedom to do so. Can we not just let the writers do the jobs they're hired for and Yoshi-P stick to directing?



Honestly, this bothers me a lot. Especially the beloved Seto scene with Ardbert, I couldn't help but think that these different personalities are in the 'sunken place' like in the movie Get Out. Still there and having to watch, but with no control. It's sort of similar to Steven Universe as well (which annoyingly nobody in this fandom seems to have seen). His persona is "surface", but his original incarnation still exists at his core and is simply being prohibited from returning as long as Steven is alive and essentially the dominant personality.

I've probably given this more thought than the writers have and, aside from the two examples in ShB, we don't see anyone else struggle with any sort of multiple personality disorder from rejoinings. It's possible I'm overthinking it and rejoinings are more like the Crystal Exarch & G'raha. Regardless, I do worry sundered personalities are suppressing the core, immortal soul to some extent.

Agreed, based on what he's revealed in interviews, I can't say my own tastes align much with Yoshi's. He's done some good interviews during SHB, but I have to wonder if Ishikawa was telling him what to say to some extent.

[KizuyaKatogami]

Mitron wasn't pulling out suppressed memories. He was placing his own onto her soul. This is a very similar thing that Emet and other Ascians have been doing with the memory crystals. If Emet wanted to, he could have used the Azem crystal on us and it probably would have worked to effectively overwrite the WoL with Azem. Mitron was trying to pull away at Gaia her entire life as she mentions memory problems even in her childhood. He's basically a parasite to her. As for the WoL fighting for Gaia. She was a bit stuck by Mitron at the time. Once we get them detached she goes back to being herself. Again I ask why that is confusing. Gaia is NOT Loghrif. She is her own person that some other guy she has never met was trying to replace with a dead person. If Gaia chose to be Loghrif then that is her choice. But she did not choose to be Loghrif. She held onto who she was despite outside influence trying to force her into something else.

Ardbert was dead and unable to return to the aetherial sea. I would have loved for him to find peace and return but that didn't happen. For whatever unexplained reason (I think it was mommy crystal) he was stuck as a ghost. If he chose not to rejoin with us, then that would be fine. That's his choice. If we could get him out of us and let him pass on, I'd be fine with that. I didn't want him to rejoin with us because that effectively erases him and partially overwrites the WoL with bits of Ardbert. I don't know where his consciousness is and because he hasn't spoken up since the Seto scene I can only assume that his mind is merged with the WoL. That's not really a happy thing in my eyes either. But it's what happened. The WoL would have died without his intervention and he chose to intervene.

Gaia
If I'd found you sooner, then maybe...!
No, wait! Don't leave me!

Until we meet again, Artemis.

Hm? Whose name did I just...

This seems to be more than just implanting. He seems to be awakening them or rekindling her memories.This seems to be further solidified in Savage where him dying causes her to awaken loghrif and accept and merge. Also…not seeing how he’s a parasite. She even says herself she doesn’t care about her past, she doesn’t want to know about her past life her parents etc. So quite literally the only thing tying her down is some girl she’s only known a few months, that’s what i meant by pandering it’s just unrealistic imo.

[Xirean]

Gaia
If I'd found you sooner, then maybe...!
No, wait! Don't leave me!

Until we meet again, Artemis.

Hm? Whose name did I just...

This seems to be more than just implanting. He seems to be awakening them or rekindling her memories.This seems to be further solidified in Savage where him dying causes her to awaken loghrif and accept and merge. Also…not seeing how he’s a parasite. She even says herself she doesn’t care about her past, she doesn’t want to know about her past life her parents etc. So quite literally the only thing tying her down is some girl she’s only known a few months, that’s what i meant by pandering it’s just unrealistic imo.

She doesn't care about the past because she cares about the now. A mindset very much instilled in her from growing up in Eulmore. Loghrif is part of the past which she doesn't care about. Also you need to stop using things happening as savage as an argument. Savage is a what if scenario. The fight in particular comes from a vision we have of an elemental crystal. It has no bearing on Gaia. Also your quote is still very much in line with the implanting of memories which is already something that other Ascians have done in the story. Also EW clearly showed that when you die your soul is wiped clean. The most that you could retain is fleeting concepts. If there characters that remembered things in past lives and such a thing was commonplace, then I'd consider your argument. But it's just not something we see. Instead we see multiple characters that have had their Ancient memories awakened by an Ascian with a memory crystal.

[KizuyaKatogami]

She doesn't care about the past because she cares about the now. A mindset very much instilled in her from growing up in Eulmore. Loghrif is part of the past which she doesn't care about. Also you need to stop using things happening as savage as an argument. Savage is a what if scenario. The fight in particular comes from a vision we have of an elemental crystal. It has no bearing on Gaia. Also your quote is still very much in line with the implanting of memories which is already something that other Ascians have done in the story. Also EW clearly showed that when you die your soul is wiped clean. The most that you could retain is fleeting concepts. If there characters that remembered things in past lives and such a thing was commonplace, then I'd consider your argument. But it's just not something we see. Instead we see multiple characters that have had their Ancient memories awakened by an Ascian with a memory crystal.

Im not talking about her loghrif past though, im talking about her current life where she presumably has parents and she just...doesnt care about that? Also...i think you need to look again at how the savage quest for that tier is presented, especially that floor. It's very much implied to have some credence to it, im merely using it though as evidence towards the memories being rekindled not implanted. Emet selch "died" and his soul wasnt wiped clean, instead he actually got his memories back.Lets not forget...we also have Zenos with his memories of the final days as well that hes had since birth so...

[Xirean]

There's a reason I see him as a parasite to her.

Mitron then forcefully merges with Gaia to become Ascian Prime


Gaia within the Ascian Prime manages to make a message, the red ball, to communicate with WoL and Ryne.



Ascian Prime then proceeds to start showing several of Gaia's memories as crystals and crushing them. This is another big reason I see him as parasitic to her. He wants to delete her to have his dead lover back. It's sad and unfortunate what happened to them but that doesn't give him the right to hurt someone else for it.

Im not talking about her loghrif past though, im talking about her current life where she presumably has parents and she just...doesnt care about that? Also...i think you need to look again at how the savage quest for that tier is presented, especially that floor. It's very much implied to have some credence to it, im merely using it though as evidence towards the memories being rekindled not implanted. Emet selch "died" and his soul wasnt wiped clean, instead he actually got his memories back.Lets not forget...we also have Zenos with his memories of the final days as well that hes had since birth so...

Emet hadn't been reborn yet. His soul was still fading thus he calls himself and Hyth "half faded souls of the dead." Once his soul is reborn that new person won't remember Emet's life. In fact the guy from Sharlayan explains that magics blocking memories fade before the memories do. So it's really no surprise that Emet knows what's going on in that UT scene.

[Lauront]

The lore EW presents on memory is unfortunately not particularly clear, especially as Montichaigne who articulates it is discussing two different theories of the soul, i.e. one whereby it's dissolved and re-assimilated in the Aetherial Sea so that new souls can be born, and the other focusing on what actually happens in the setting, i.e. soul rebirth (by all accounts, the correct theory, and G'raha takes it a notch further by positing that souls have intrinsic behavioural propensities.) On the one and, he states memory aether is not very susceptible to change but that it can be washed away in the Aetherial Sea; on the other, he says some events can imprint on the soul indelibly. I don't think he is presenting too certain an understanding of it, and my suspicion is that which theory you subscribe to has implications for what you believe happens to memory aether. Amon himself notes that he always had dreams of his times in Elpis, which he blames on Hermes's attempt to suppress his memory having the opposite effect on the memories. Text on the Convocation crystals varies between EN and FR, in that the latter states they're intended to revive memories. Equally, throughout the Eden quests, both the notion of imbuing and reviving memory are brought up, and by all accounts, the crystals are preferable as a method to what Mitron uses, i.e. the Ascian prime merger. IMO, it is plausible that germinating the seeds of a few imbued memories will suffice to begin restoring further memories, particularly as the subconscious reflects on them and tries to establish context... it may just be a case of how deeply buried in the soul they are. Either way, the lore here is more a case of just-so stories than firmly established and detailed fact, so I think both interpretations are valid.

[KizuyaKatogami]

There's a reason I see him as a parasite to her.

Mitron then forcefully merges with Gaia to become Ascian Prime


Gaia within the Ascian Prime manages to make a message, the red ball, to communicate with WoL and Ryne.



Ascian Prime then proceeds to start showing several of Gaia's memories as crystals and crushing them. This is another big reason I see him as parasitic to her. He wants to delete her to have his dead lover back. It's sad and unfortunate what happened to them but that doesn't give him the right to hurt someone else for it.



Emet hadn't been reborn yet. His soul was still fading thus he calls himself and Hyth "half faded souls of the dead." Once his soul is reborn that new person won't remember Emet's life. In fact the guy from Sharlayan explains that magics blocking memories fade before the memories do. So it's really no surprise that Emet knows what's going on in that UT scene.

Again, i being up Zenos as proof. As for parasitic, his lovers soul is still in there. He’s fulfilling the promise both of them made to each other. It seems the only thing tying gaia down is ryne lol, not even anything about her past without amnesia. The problem is one is existing at the expense of the other, and personally i see it as 2 people being happy is better than 1. He’s simply undoing the tragedy that occurred via the sundering, i’d say he has every right to do it. The sundering wasn’t a good act, and it created broken fractions of people. He was merely trying to put her back together. It’s no different than us picking up our shards.

[Skyborne]

This is really reawakening my memories of Eden being kind of messed up and the beginning of "throwing the Unsundered under the bus to prop up the Sundered as Superior Beings". Ah, and "Move On". Easy to say when you haven't had your entire support network ripped out from underneath you. Thank you for the mental health advice, Squeenix!

This is another reason why I consider the sundering such a violation because the original soul's rights were not only overwritten once, but in perpetuity. It's like the crime that just keeps on committing.

The perfect crime, mindwiping everyone and holding every soul hostage x13 so you (apparently) can't do anything without it without causing harm and being a Certifiably Bad Person. Just Forge Ahead and, like, get over it instantly, even if you're an immortal who sees time on a vastly different scale!

[Xirean]

The lore EW presents on memory is unfortunately not particularly clear, especially as Montichaigne who articulates it is discussing two different theories of the soul, i.e. one whereby it's dissolved and re-assimilated in the Aetherial Sea so that new souls can be born, and the other focusing on what actually happens in the setting, i.e. soul rebirth (by all accounts, the correct theory, and G'raha takes it a notch further by positing that souls have intrinsic behavioural propensities.) On the one and, he states memory aether is not very susceptible to change; on the other, he says some events can imprint on the soul indelibly. I don't think he is presenting too certain an understanding of it, and my suspicion is that which theory you subscribe to has implications for what you believe happens to memory aether. Amon himself notes that he always had dreams of his times in Elpis, which he blames on Hermes's attempt to suppress his memory having the opposite effect on the memories. Text on the Convocation crystals varies between EN and FR, in that the latter states they're intended to revive memories. Equally, throughout the Eden quests, both the notion of imbuing and reviving memory are brought up, and by all accounts, the crystals are preferable as a method to what Mitron uses, i.e. the Ascian prime merger. IMO, it is plausible that germinating the seeds of a few imbued memories will suffice to begin restoring further memories, particularly as the subconscious reflects on them and tries to establish context... it may just be a case of how deeply buried in the soul they are. Either way, the lore here is more a case of just-so stories than firmly established and detailed fact, so I think both interpretations are valid.

That's fair. I mostly take the scene in Sharlayan a bit more seriously as it seems implied to explain why Emet knows what is going on in UT. As far as how memories actually work, more info is required. Either way, I don't think it is morally acceptable to try to overwrite someone with the memories of a previous life, without consent. Another thing to consider though about Gaia is that she is presumably Loghrif's first reincarnation after dying. We know Amon is a reincarnation of Hermes but we don't know for certain how many more lives that soul has lived. The WoL for example doesn't get memory flashes from Azem. The closest is echo visions of people we are talking to in that moment. They also don't get visions of other previous lives. If presented with memories from them it would be interesting to see how the WoL actually recalled those events.

Again, i being up Zenos as proof. As for parasitic, his lovers soul is still in there. He’s fulfilling the promise both of them made to each other. It seems the only thing tying gaia down is ryne lol, not even anything about her past without amnesia. The problem is one is existing at the expense of the other, and personally i see it as 2 people being happy is better than 1. He’s simply undoing the tragedy that occurred via the sundering, i’d say he has every right to do it. The sundering wasn’t a good act, and it created broken fractions of people. He was merely trying to put her back together. It’s no different than us picking up our shards.

There's a lot about Zenos we don't know. There's mention of him being experimented on and then he gets the artificial Echo and more weird stuff happens. I'd need to see specific lines from/about Zenos to see that point more clearly. Either way he is one guy and his circumstance is difficult to count as a standard one. As for Mitron and Loghrifs promise. That doesn't give them the right to Overwrite Gaia. If the WoL made a promise to Alphinaud and he died and was reborn, it would be horrible for the WoL to try to take that new person and turn them into Alphinaud. I don't think the sundering was a good thing either. I'm not pro sundering. I'm pro who is alive right now. Currently that is Gaia. Loghrif is dead and as far as we are shown, there is no way to bring her back without hurting Gaia. That is NOT ok to do. I also don't want to see the WoL going around and getting other Azem shards. Those shards are people with their own lives. For the WoL to make that person a part of themself would kill that person. That's murder and it's disgusting. I stated earlier that I didn't want Ardbert to merge with the WoL. He chose to do so to save the WoL and only chose to do so when the WoL was about to die. If that wasn't about to happen I doubt he would have done it.

[Rulakir]

Either way, I don't think it is morally acceptable to try to overwrite someone with the memories of a previous life, without consent.

My issue with this is it puts Loghrif permanently in the back seat of any life unless she chooses not to be reborn, which seems to be a thing as of EW. This is another reason why I consider the sundering such a violation because the original soul's rights were not only overwritten once, but in perpetuity. It's like the crime that just keeps on committing.

The WoL for example doesn't get memory flashes from Azem. The closest is echo visions of people we are talking to in that moment. They also don't get visions of other previous lives. If presented with memories from them it would be interesting to see how the WoL actually recalled those events.

At this point the WoL should too. I don't buy this bit about them not wanting to step on the toes of players' headcanon when they've developed a personality for Azem, which is probably the most egregious thing they could have done. It's too late to make Azem a separate character from the WoL too as we're consistently told how alike they are, which also superimposes a personality onto the active player character. I honestly don't know what they were thinking with this. Add on EW's lack of diverse dialog options and I genuinely don't feel a connection to my character anymore, I'm just RPing Yoshi-P's WoL now.

I think if we do get our 13th shard and become 10/14 that it's high time we start having dreams, flashbacks, something that other characters less rejoined than we are have. Just have them as first person perspective, Azem never has to be shown or heard.