Tale of Emet [FF14 x Nier Reincarnation event story]

[Cleretic]

I'm not so sure about that - because Alexander was summoned by the Illuminati, who seem to value scientific knowledge and technology above everything else, thier belief that Alexander should follow scientifc principles, even if nobody currently understands them, means that he does.

Sort of using the power of primal summoning to leapfrog ahead in technology.

That's likely accurate, but you'd still have some unconscious shortcuts going, and presumptions taken as fact. Like, we in the real world have theories as to how a time machine could work, but that doesn't mean those theories are necessarily true; if we had access to primals, the crowd that are sure that the TARDIS was logically sound could summon one that would work even if the world actually ran by Terminator rules, but that wouldn't mean that actually building a TARDIS would work.

Alexander helped in answering one half of the equation; to make a time machine you need to know how time travel works and how to make a machine that can do it, and Alexander demonstrated the former. Making the technology is still really hard, and the Illuminati didn't actually prove anything about it.

[Shookbeast]

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm. (Squints hard at the YouTube).

So. Where does that leave the theory that at the moment right after the sundering - we are left with 14 identical planets, with identical copies of “powered down” ancients?

For example, do we still think that “Pre-Sundering Azem” gets split into 14 identical but also much less powerful Azems? As would all Ancients?

Does this video put forward that these identical copies were all left so discombobulated that they were bereft of language and coherent thought? (Or is it just metaphorical?)

For me, this is important to the story, because it involves our Azem. In the post-sundering, were each of the 14 sundered Azems simply left just underpowered and a little confused - or were they basically brain-wiped and left to fend/die/wander off a cliff? Big difference there.

I still find the Sundering a bit suspish. This video is helping a little…

One big issue I still have, is that if the 14 reflections were all perfect copies, then there would be books and records. If the sundered ancients were a little foggy on the details of the pre-sundered world, they could just pick up a newspaper from that previous morning (so to speak).

But if this video is implying that the Sundering robbed the Ancients of their language - and the abilities to read and write… that’s pretty horrible, but does explain why the Ancients in each reflection didn’t just attempt to pick things back up from right before the Sundering.

[Cleretic]

One big issue I still have, is that if the 14 reflections were all perfect copies, then there would be books and records. If the sundered ancients were a little foggy on the details of the pre-sundered world, they could just pick up a newspaper from that previous morning (so to speak).

But if this video is implying that the Sundering robbed the Ancients of their language - and the abilities to read and write… that’s pretty horrible, but does explain why the Ancients in each reflection didn’t just attempt to pick things back up from right before the Sundering.

First of all, like has been said multiple times, remember that this is Emet-Selch's perspective of it all: people who know NieR Reincarnation better than us have confirmed that's how the storytelling is normally, and it checks out pretty much one-to-one with Emet's framing and use of language ('malformed' is wording that he, and only he, uses when referring to sundered people). It's not actually providing new information, it's just dressing up and compressing the story he's told us.

It's hard to read anything much into the language part; it could be an objective truth and making sort of a Tower of Babel story... or it could just be, as pointed out before, Emet looking at everyone screaming in wordless pain and confuusion and going 'welp, I guess they can't talk anymore'. You're not wrong that them losing that language would arguably see them abandon that continuity of civilization (again, Tower of Babel), but remember that the fact the rest of the Scions can understand the Ancients is an actual scene beat.

What might be worth remembering, though, is just how the Ancients recorded information. We know from Akadaemia that they weren't above written notes, but most recording and communication we see actually seems to be through various forms of crystal--seen in the Watcher's tower, as well as Anamnesis Anyder. But not only are both of those mediums fairly susceptible to damage, even the WoL and the Scions have to exert some effort to read information in crystals. It's entirely possible that even if you do understand the language, it's just not worth the effort to read.

...especially since you have to consider the possibility that they might not even care. When we came to the Anyders, we were paying attention because we knew people motivated by Amaurot were fairly pressing concerns to us. But the recently sundered? They don't have that context, and might have more pressing concerns like 'finding food' and 'avoiding the giant walking landshark'.

[sidurgu-12]

'avoiding the giant walking landshark'.

yyyyeeeeaaaahhhhh, their creature perfecting came back and bit us in the bum lol.

[RyuDragnier]

yyyyeeeeaaaahhhhh, their creature perfecting came back and bit us in the bum lol.

Worse than that, considering who created the Behemoth...

[Rulakir]

But if this video is implying that the Sundering robbed the Ancients of their language - and the abilities to read and write… that’s pretty horrible, but does explain why the Ancients in each reflection didn’t just attempt to pick things back up from right before the Sundering.

I'm inclined to take it at face value, especially as it's Ishikawa and fits within the lore she's presented when she's had the creative freedom to do so. I don't subscribe to the interpretation that's it's from Emet's POV as opposed to an accurate depiction of events. Emet isn't prone to lying whereas Venat has a long history of deceit. Plus, he can see souls. Were it simply a matter of the shards being diluted copies of the original they would've appeared the same just with thinner aether. What Emet saw were broken souls with broken bodies.

Given Venat's fear was that the Ancients wouldn't change and would go the way of The Plenty, it's reasonable to assume that the goal was to erase their identity, their culture, strip them of their magics, everything that could've set them back on what she considered a doomed path. Forced change at a fundamental level. The Tower of Babel theory would imply there were still languages, which is not what we're told. Matter of fact, it says: "They can no longer shape words." It's then said a substantial amount of time passes before they start to learn and "speak in new tongues". Adding in the context of ShB, the impression I get is by the time they reached this level of development what remained of the Ancient civilization had long been destroyed or fallen into ruin thus resulting in forging new histories as they're unaware of any other.

[Shookbeast]

...especially since you have to consider the possibility that they might not even care. When we came to the Anyders, we were paying attention because we knew people motivated by Amaurot were fairly pressing concerns to us. But the recently sundered? They don't have that context, and might have more pressing concerns like 'finding food' and 'avoiding the giant walking landshark'.

If the sundered Ancients were left only just a little confused, (and not completely brain-wiped), then they shouldn’t have a problem remembering how their basic society functioned - nor would they be in such a state of crisis that tussling with monstrous wildlife might cause societal collapse.

Sure, they might not be used to being de-powered, but that doesn’t mean they lost all sense of reason. Azem and likely some friends are still there. Maybe a few decent local leaders too. Unsung heroes. Librarians and scholars. Scientists. If their memories were all just a little clouded - then they should be able to put the pieces of their lives back together…

This isn’t to say they didn’t maybe try. If the sundered Ancients still had a basic idea of who they were, they might’ve even worked with Emet to try and unsunder themselves. We might find out the story of the 13th is more complicated and far sadder than we know.

I'm inclined to take it at face value, especially as it's Ishikawa and fits within the lore she's presented when she's had the creative freedom to do so. (Cut for space)

It’s also possible the Sundering did a full brain-wipe, effectively murdering everyone’s previous personality - which lead to societal collapse and a return to a Stone Age sort of global reset. If the Sundering was that bad however - it could be another point in the corner for the whole “we go back in time to become Azem and fix the Sundering” theory.

Regardless of which version of the Sundering turns out to be canon - I’m still in the camp that eventually we’re gonna see these events transpire. Maybe we’ll get some further clues as we delve into the 13th…

[sidurgu-12]

Worse than that, considering who created the Behemoth...

"you know what nature needs!? an animal that can summon flippin meteors!"

"....how does that help nature?"

"i dont know but it looks cool!"

"...good enough. approved."

[MikkoAkure]

Huh? Time travel was largely based off exceptionally advanced technology that was placed into the hands of the Sundered as a consequence of Omega arriving on Etheirys. If not for Omega's arrival, the feat would very likely have not have been possible.

Omega isn't time travel, Alexander is. Omega was studied to travel in the void between dimensions, the Crystal Tower was studied to open a portal between Reflections, and Alexander was studied to travel time.

The thing is, is that Cid and Nero both were given their education by Garleans who were educated by Emet-selch in the ways of Magitek. And every advancement in those fields was done by reverse engineering Allagan technology, which was created by Emet-selch.

The seedbed that Cid flourished in was laid by Emet-selch.

And in the end, they built the Tycoon, which is a blow for blow match-up of Alexander Prime. It's less theory and more recreation. The real achievement is the blending of it with two other technologies. However, Allagan technology is based off of Omega's technology, but we have no exact road map of who did that.

Anyway, not trying to kill 8UC's achievement, but it's literally not possible without Cid whose level of technical expertise is impossible without Solus yae Galvus introducing Magitek to the Garleans.

The Ascians may have created the originals, but the Sundered perfected it. All modern achievements are made standing on the shoulders of giants and it doesn't change the fact that the Ascians didn't come up with the application of the possibilities themselves, or else they could have fixed this whole thing a long time ago. And then Elidibus took the 8UC's feats even further by studying them and making a portal to over 12,000 years ago.

[Vyrerus]

or else they could have fixed this whole thing a long time ago.

Honestly, ever since SHB, this has made Alexander and time travel in the setting a gaping plot hole as far as the Ascians are concerned. I know we can attribute it to stuff like they didn't know they were going where they were going with the Ascians back in Heavensward, but the plot has never addressed how an Ascian pretty much told Mide to summon Alexander with the horn 3 years prior to HW vs. what the Ascian's goals are.

It's even more of a slap when you replay Alexander raids, and the Goblins and Mide's crew are going on about, "Making a Utopia/perfect world."

You'd think control over Alexander would be priority #1 for the Ascians, cause hell, if the Illuminati can make it work, why not the, "Primordial Heroes?" They don't even need technology outside of Alexander since they don't need spatial movement since they're not trying to prevent a Rejoining.

Kinda hoping someday we get a Tales from the Chamberpot, and we get some sorta AU Ascian Alexander shenanigan story where they go back in time, but...