The Mug change, predictably, feels like garbage.

[wereotter]

That said, again, the class did not need such a change in the first place. If the developers want to make classes focus around two minutes, that's fine. However, when it comes to the point of changing the usage of an iconic ability of a class, I think it goes a little too far. Ninja is not Ninja without a one-minute Trick Attack party buff. As many people have said time and time again, one minute fits neatly into two minutes. If the problem is balance, there are other solutions that do not come at the cost of class identity.

I think this sums up the difference in our opinions (and that's fine) to me the identity of ninja isn't the 60 second trick attack, it's the ninjutsu system. Trick attack could be every 60 seconds, every 90 seconds, every 120 seconds, and to me, that wouldn't change the identity of the job.

But even then, the developers are also doing a lot of upending of job identities this expansion too, so I get the frustration there. When monk lost its identity of being fast paced and positional heavy to having the fewest positionals of the melees and had it's OGCDs moved into it's version of mudras, that hurt as someone who's always bounced back and forth between monk and ninja as my main jobs. Summoner had it's identity as a damage over time job removed too.

I do think we both agree there are better ways the changes to ninja could have been implemented, at least, even if we disagree on what those solutions should be.

[Rufalus]

Monk still feels Monk enough to me while they keep the opo opo, coeurl, raptor stance gcd combos. Things I like about the EW changes are multiple charges of zooming to ally/enemy and the collecting seals/chakra thing fits really well in my opinion.

The worst job killer change that comes to mind is when they made Ast cards all basically do the same thing. Also I was disappointed with Ast's dps kit from its very introduction in Heavensward; that was when I realized healers will always be DoT + spam one other button.

[aloneatsea]

I think this sums up the difference in our opinions (and that's fine) to me the identity of ninja isn't the 60 second trick attack, it's the ninjutsu system. Trick attack could be every 60 seconds, every 90 seconds, every 120 seconds, and to me, that wouldn't change the identity of the job.

But even then, the developers are also doing a lot of upending of job identities this expansion too, so I get the frustration there. When monk lost its identity of being fast paced and positional heavy to having the fewest positionals of the melees and had it's OGCDs moved into it's version of mudras, that hurt as someone who's always bounced back and forth between monk and ninja as my main jobs. Summoner had it's identity as a damage over time job removed too.

I do think we both agree there are better ways the changes to ninja could have been implemented, at least, even if we disagree on what those solutions should be.

Hmm, I see. For me, I agree completely -- mudras are the core of Ninja, but I consider Trick Attack to be an extension of the mudra system, based on its interactions with Suiton.

To me, it's very clear that the way mudras function centers around Suiton and Trick. You receive one mudra charge every twenty seconds, and coincidentally (or not) the Suiton buff lasts just as long. This is perfectly, and I believe intentionally, designed such that you can prepare Suiton 20s in advance, activate Trick just as Suiton's buff is about to run out, and then comfortably fit two mudras (usually Raiton) within Trick. To me, Trick and Mudras go hand in hand. You can change the potencies on Trick as you like, but changing Trick from a one-minute cooldown would throw the whole system into disarray. If Trick became a two-minute cooldown, you'd suddenly have to dump a Raiton during odd-minute windows (where you would previously have prepared Suiton), but prepare Suiton on the even windows. It would at the very least feel strange and somewhat clunky, I think, as that Raiton would just have nowhere to go, whereas before, all of your mudras were dedicated to enabling burst or being burst.

The fact that Trick and the mudras seem to be built so intentionally to work together is why I'm so adamant that Trick should stay as it was in 6.08. They are quite explicitly tied together, what with a whole mudra dedicated to enabling Trick, and separating them without destroying what makes Ninja, well, Ninja, is no simple task. I feel that the risks of changing that core far outweigh the benefits.

[Manofpassion]

To me, ninja's core identity is both mudras and old trick. I don't want one without the other.

If the devs do have the urge to upend Job identity, mudras are clearly higher up on the priority list. Being very frustrating for people with lacklustre Internet, removal of bunny mudra or some sort of pity system would be very welcome. I would argue mudras aren't even that unique to ninja anymore, with monk already having a mudra knockoff with the nadi system. Modifying mudras will improve accessibility and ease, something the devs clearly have a hard on for. Changing mug does neither.

The trick gutting is sake for the sake of change. The class isn't easier, the class isn't more fun, and the class isn't more unique. I much rather the ninja devs only actually implement changes when they have good ideas, not something they just think of in a lazy afternoon. Furthermore, the ninja devs should spend their time actually playing ninja instead of thinking of half-baked ideas. I believe if they play the game they will have a better understanding of the job.

[Jaquan]

Before you check my player history, yes I am newbie. Yes I haven't experience old Ninja at it's peak being only level 52/53 with it. At the same time though I have a slightly different perspective on things and to be fair... Out of all ARR classes I played Ninja felt like they had least coherence in their kit. You Learn Mug at level 15 and Trick Attack at level 18 and let's be clear here, both of those skills are useless at the point you learn them and start doing obligatory duties. You can't hide in a boss room for long enough to land Trick Attack while Mug is 150 potency strike on 120s Cooldown. In fact I spent entire 2.0 content till CT raids and optional Hard Dungeons with 2 dead skills not worth gracing my Hotbar. Ninja Kit didn't felt like evolving as much as it was fixing their "awesome but impractical" parts of the kit. And Mug... Oh boy that's even funnier because pre 6.1 it takes 53 levels and progression to at least 4.0 MSQ (or close to an end if you don't get ahead of level curve) till it gets Ninki. That's kinda long time for a skill you get near the start of your journey to actually be useful. Anyway from my perspective Ninja feels more whole class at levels 50 to 60 as their entire Kit gets much more use throughout the game. I will admit that I will probably encounter issues when Mug will get Ninki (but since I just entered HW it's still a long time for it). Heck I'd gladly have Ninki Component cut out if it means I have the tool that's usable from getgo.

[Equitable_Remedy]

I'm still having a lot of fun with NIN and continuing to main it.

Sorry, I guess ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[aloneatsea]

Before you check my player history, yes I am newbie. Yes I haven't experience old Ninja at it's peak being only level 52/53 with it. At the same time though I have a slightly different perspective on things and to be fair... Out of all ARR classes I played Ninja felt like they had least coherence in their kit. You Learn Mug at level 15 and Trick Attack at level 18 and let's be clear here, both of those skills are useless at the point you learn them and start doing obligatory duties. You can't hide in a boss room for long enough to land Trick Attack while Mug is 150 potency strike on 120s Cooldown. In fact I spent entire 2.0 content till CT raids and optional Hard Dungeons with 2 dead skills not worth gracing my Hotbar. Ninja Kit didn't felt like evolving as much as it was fixing their "awesome but impractical" parts of the kit. And Mug... Oh boy that's even funnier because pre 6.1 it takes 53 levels and progression to at least 4.0 MSQ (or close to an end if you don't get ahead of level curve) till it gets Ninki. That's kinda long time for a skill you get near the start of your journey to actually be useful. Anyway from my perspective Ninja feels more whole class at levels 50 to 60 as their entire Kit gets much more use throughout the game. I will admit that I will probably encounter issues when Mug will get Ninki (but since I just entered HW it's still a long time for it). Heck I'd gladly have Ninki Component cut out if it means I have the tool that's usable from getgo.

While I can't speak much to the current levelling experience, having levelled Ninja during Shadowbringers, it does strike me as odd that Mug receives its party buff so early. When I was levelling, unlocking Suiton (and thus my party buff) was exciting, because I finally got the 'core' ability of Ninja and was finally able to buff the party's damage. You get Mug unceremoniously at Level 18, and it's more powerful, technically, than Trick. It just feels weird.

[AoifeAogane]

It's been a month. I still want the party damage buff to be back on trick attack. In case any devs are reading.

[RyuuZero]

Black Mage will never suffer cause Yoshi P actually tests it, and would never finalize the changes if it sucks. But everything Yoshi P does not test or play is up for what ever.

That reminds me when they first showed off Ley-Lines and they explained that "Ley-Lines will disappear once you leave the circle" and Yoshida was like "that kinda sucks"
and the Skill was never like that in the game

but regarding the NIN Changes, at least things just got switched around, I joked how they reduced NIN's Rotation to 2 Buttons (Huraijin>Mug>Death[Wait 2minutes] repeat) <- My First Run in Aglaia btw.
though in my Opinion it would make more sense if they give the personal DPS Buff to Mug.. I mean you steal things so it's yours and leave Trick Attack to be the Surprise Attack to stagger the Enemy and open them for a Deadly Barrage

[AnotherPerson]

What I struggle with is that so many people seem to want to compromise on the personal buff. Am I abnormal in thinking that it feels quite awful to play around? There's a reason I avoid classes like Monk or Dancer -- having to put up a personal buff and a party buff feels quite wretched to me. I'd much rather potencies be adjusted to account for the damage increase the personal buff gives. I don't think receiving a personal damage buff makes gameplay more exciting. Buffing the party, however, and lining up my big damage abilities -- that feels meaningful.

I just don't want Ninja to lose what made it enjoyable for me to play in the first place -- the fact that it wasn't like anything else. If they keep these changes, there's really nothing else I can move to.

It makes so much more sense in my mind to keep Ninja as it is, and adjust the potency on Trick Attack if it's so problematic. The developers could always approach it like Dragoon's Dragon Sight and have it buff the Ninja's damage by more than the party member's.

Frankly, I'm glad they couldn't do anything more major. The only 'major' change I want to see in Ninja right now is them reverting the changes to Trick and Mug.

The only problems 6.08 Ninja had were a few unspired oGCDs (Mug, Meisui, Dream within a Dream) and poor Ninki generation. I don't think Ninja needs an overhaul to fix these problems -- nor were they more pressing than other job issues.

It's a bit of a mixed bag for me, but I accept the idea of what they're trying to do. On one hand, I actually like ninjas having more personal damage on their burst. If their personal burst felt weak, then they just feel like a gimped "burst" job tied to Trick Attack in content outside of raiding because the RDPS gain locks them into a design for only being a Trick Attack buffer and lacking any job fantasy outside of support. In a way, opening the design for Trick Attack to be a personal buff allows more flexibility in design as you can only fit in so many skill changes in a 15 second burst window before everything crumbles apart by next expansion with the introduction of a new skill or two. We can already see that happening with the removal of Shadowfang and replacing it with Phantom Kamaitachi, but for ninjas where their damage is their initial burst window, it's even more damaging on the leveling process.

At the same time, because the game is designed under 60 second burst windows (WAR getting the 60 second timer on IR for example), mug feels VERY out of place now - because Ninja's second identity is raidwide damage burst buff every 60 seconds. Changing party buff to a 120 second window makes the window very inflexible in its own way.

Essentially, Ninja's been suffering from its 2 unique identities - job fantasy wise (a high initial personal burst damage job for its assassin-like gameplay + a support burst job with Trick Attack). Because the higher level you go % buffs actually increase significantly as more jobs get more skills + stats, the personal burst & future skill potencies for ninja had to be lowered to compensate. The developers had this problem with Trick Attack in the past (10% party buff but shorter buff duration) where ninja is usually left in this weird state of balancing which led Ninja to feel really weak or really strong in terms of its personal damage to its overall damage. Ninja would be 'overpowered' / acceptable with trick attack padding, but could feel like utter trash to level because all of its damage was based on rDPS and your hugely padded numbers of rDPS doesn't help you kill enemies faster in solo content stuff when your initial burst doesn't actually kill the enemy. Again, this is due to the way % based buffs work, the higher level you go, the larger their impact will be and the smaller the effect will be when you're not with a party - which runs counter to its other identity as an assassin-like job identity of directly killing the enemy at the very start of the fight because you just lack that personal damage to do so.

A big reason why I play PvP for Ninja now is exactly because it captures the assassin-like job fantasy while giving into some support flavor through debuffs & utility that can affect the battle (afflicting heavy, stun, able to shield + gain movement speed, healing, gap close + stealthing mid-combat + assassinate, etc.). Unfortunately, not all of that can be translated well in PvE due to balancing issues and debuffs largely being ignored. So yeah. Mixed bag for me.