What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[Theodric]

The fact that even in the Reincarnation story, they subtly try and hint that 'Hydaelyn good Zodiark bad' leaves such a horrible taste in my mouth. Can't even escape it in another universe's retelling.

Especially egregious when this story is supposed to be from Emet-Selch's point of view! Like what the heck!

It's particularly odd given that the game has repeatedly established that Light and Dark do not equal 'good' and 'evil'.

The game in general would do well to stop portraying most attempts to preserve or restore something as a bad thing. Especially in cases when some nutter comes along, kills a bunch of people only for the survivors to be told to stop...trying to prevent their own extinction and elimination of all memory of their loved ones?

[YukikoKurosawa]

You know what I just realized? There is zero mystery after Elpis. The entire mystery of the plot is revealed in that zone. Halfway through the story we already have our big final reveal, so there is absolutely no mystery to carry the rest of the story. So not only is it an arguably underwhelming reveal, it happens halfway through the plot leaving us with absolute nothing to carry the remainder of the story. It's just "alright well I guess we just go and kill Meteion now". But first lemme go show these rabbits around on a tour for an hour because that's important. Riveting, truly.

Imagine if, for example, there was another big bad and it somehow hijacked Meteion from outerspace after the Meteia encountered it, that was actually behind all the extinction of all those worlds, who still wasn't revealed even in Elpis. So then we're left to wonder "what did Meteion really see? Who or what did she encounter that's now manipulating her? What's it's motive?". Even more, say Meteion leaves at the end of the dungeon to go join her new mysterious master, what happened to her? What happened to her sisters? Are they still alive? Can you just imagine. Something to you know carry the remaining 30 hours of plot. Something wasn't taking fucking bunnies on a tour.

[CrownySuccubus]

The game in general would do well to stop portraying most attempts to preserve or restore something as a bad thing.

It doesn't. Not consistently.

There's plenty of plot points/sidestories that present trying to preserve or save something with standing tradition as unambiguously good or positive. Such as preserving the peace of Hingashi even after establishing that its government is corrupt as hell. Or maintaining the traditions of the Viis and the Ronka in the Greatwood.

Imagine if, for example, there was another big bad and it somehow hijacked Meteion from outerspace after the Meteia encountered it, that was actually behind all the extinction of all those worlds, who still wasn't revealed even in Elpis.

I would honestly find this even WORSE than what we got. If "Aliens were the real bad guys" was the reveal all along, then just make it aliens and cut Elpis and Meteion out entirely. That's exactly what my #1 suggestion would be for fixing the story.

Meteion herself was already a hijacking of Zodiark. We don't need another hijack for the hijack.

[RyuDragnier]

It doesn't. Not consistently.

There's plenty of plot points/sidestories that present trying to preserve or save something with standing tradition as unambiguously good or positive. Such as preserving the peace of Hingashi even after establishing that its government is corrupt as hell. Or maintaining the traditions of the Viis and the Ronka in the Greatwood.

But wasn't the SAM storyline panned by the playerbase for that happening with Hingashi? I distinctly remember a LOT of players showing dislike of the 60-70 questline for doing that.

[Skyborne]

...

It's just strange how the """"unbiased"""" (according to the playerbase) Unending Codex just straight up erases the twelve people who wanted to stop the sacrifice, in line with the solo Venat-wank cutscene post-Elpis. Do the developers know that people have a memory and know that 5.2 happened? It was just puzzling since I wanted to see the perspective of these individuals... maybe have them be actually named. I suppose there is still a slight chance for this in the 24man story as it is meant to be an "epilogue" but I just don't know... they couldn't even really give us info about the full Convocation, and left 5 or so of them in the dust.

The general impression is that the writers had the whole "The deaths of the Ancients was an acceptable, natural consequence of the rules of suffering and existence" moral in their heads and everything in Endwalker was shoehorned into that lesson, even if it contradicted past information. I think it was Paw Paw who said it here first, but it seems like the writers were afraid of having some Ancients oppose the third sacrifice because it would demonstrate that there were, indeed, Ancients who weren't "deserving" of being Sundered. It would leave questions of why Venat didn't spare them.

Even more strange since the Watcher, who was based off of a friend of Venat, says that there were Ancients who wanted to find the root cause of the Final Days, but it is left as one sentence. It's just annoying how we kept getting hints and snippets and fleeting fragments of a more complete story that isn't complete simpery, but is never delved into. Hey, maybe we can look forward to the next collab in some other game... or a side story tucked away somewhere. Somewhere next to the AU where our god-queen actually does the right thing and our friends can revel until dawn in peace and happiness again.

[CrownySuccubus]

But wasn't the SAM storyline panned by the playerbase for that happening with Hingashi? I distinctly remember a LOT of players showing dislike of the 60-70 questline for doing that.

I was just stating what the story does and doesn't do. If we're trying to pick out which ones were good or bad, we'll be here all day.

Even more strange since the Watcher, who was based off of a friend of Venat, says that there were Ancients who wanted to find the root cause of the Final Days, but it is left as one sentence. It's just annoying how we kept getting hints and snippets and fleeting fragments of a more complete story that isn't complete simpery, but is never delved into. Hey, maybe we can look forward to the next collab in some other game... or a side story tucked away somewhere. Somewhere next to the AU where our god-queen actually does the right thing and our friends can revel until dawn in peace and happiness again.

Yeah, this is what frustrates me to no end about Venat.

She watched her own friends and allies sit their and tear their hair out trying to find the root cause of the FD and said nothing.

If the game had shown us that she had done everything she could to warn people, but they didn't believe her, or something else made their preparations moot, then I don't think so many people would have a problem with the story. But again, everything has to serve that "it's actually natural and just that the Ancients crumbled" viewpoint.

[Theodric]

It doesn't. Not consistently.

There's plenty of plot points/sidestories that present trying to preserve or save something with standing tradition as unambiguously good or positive. Such as preserving the peace of Hingashi even after establishing that its government is corrupt as hell. Or maintaining the traditions of the Viis and the Ronka in the Greatwood.

Hence 'most'.

It conveniently almost always portray it as wrong or bad when the antagonists set out to preserve something. Whilst issue can be taken with the methods employed in such a venture, taking issue with the methods is more than enough justification for the protagonists to oppose it. Instead we get weird lectures about how the very same entities who suffered the most from a situation need to 'move on' or basically just roll over and die so that the entities who stand to benefit the most from the same circumstances can continue to prosper.

By portraying the struggle between the Unsundered and Sundered as a clash of like wills and two heroes shouldering the burden and future of their respective civilisations a healthy balance was struck back in Shadowbringers.

Most people would have been happy with the same stance continuing into Endwalker, I believe. Rather than everything being rewritten or obscured in a deceptive attempt to reframe opposition to genocide as 'not forging ahead'.

It's why I'm wary of the next storyline being a 'conflict of values'. I can't imagine how many arguments will break out if the game tries to portray everything the Scions desire as correct only to insist that we need to kill everyone who thinks differently to them.

But wasn't the SAM storyline panned by the playerbase for that happening with Hingashi? I distinctly remember a LOT of players showing dislike of the 60-70 questline for doing that.

I enjoyed it. I don't want to eradicate any and all grit or flaws in a specific fantasy nation. It just takes away from the 'fantasy' for me and makes it all dull and boring.

[RyuDragnier]

Even more strange since the Watcher, who was based off of a friend of Venat, says that there were Ancients who wanted to find the root cause of the Final Days, but it is left as one sentence. It's just annoying how we kept getting hints and snippets and fleeting fragments of a more complete story that isn't complete simpery, but is never delved into.

Perhaps this is more of a hint as to what Azem was doing during that time frame.

[CrownySuccubus]

Hence 'most'.

It conveniently almost always portray it as wrong or bad when the antagonists set out to preserve something.

Yeah. Because that "something" is usually something like "oppression" or "genocide" or some other system of power built on lies.

Non-invasive and non-oppressive forms of tradition are almost universally treated as either "fine" or positive, though. Which is, again, another reason Hingashi stands out as contradictory.

[Raoabolic]

Yeah. Because that "something" is usually something like "oppression" or "genocide" or some other system of power built on lies.

*Awkwardly stares at the Venat genocide that was hand waved from the story*
*Awkwardly stares at Ala Mingo not getting flak after they failed at forcefully taking Gridana*
*Awkwardly stares at Sil'Dah*
The game picks and chooses what atrocities it wants you to feel bad about, don't think too much about it. lol