Can we talk about 3rd party tools and disability?

[Ralphe2449]

If you are unable to play on the same level play field as everyone else then you are simply not able and shouldnt demand special treatment, it is unfair to all when a few are given special treatment.

Either all get it or no one gets it.

[Xirean]

If you are unable to play on the same level play field as everyone else then you are simply not able and shouldnt demand special treatment, it is unfair to all when a few are given special treatment.

Either all get it or no one gets it.

Right, so how do you feel about wheelchair ramps?

[Packetdancer]

If you are unable to play on the same level play field as everyone else then you are simply not able and shouldnt demand special treatment, it is unfair to all when a few are given special treatment.

Either all get it or no one gets it.

You say "either all get it or no one gets it" like that's an argument against this thread, but people are kind of asking for all to get it. That's more or less the entire point of this thread: SQEX should not be relying on third-party mods which they themselves disallow as the accessibility plan for their game, and which only some people can use, but rather should add some accessibility options -- even just basic ones -- to the game itself, so that they're available to everyone.

(And available without breaking TOS.)

That said, I'd be curious how either of these proposed/requested accessibility features would give people an unfair benefit over other players. (Especially if these features were in the base game, and so you could turn them on yourself if you wanted.)

• A feature which audibly calls out things seen on screen for visually-impaired players, such as "Hesperos is casting Bloodrake..." (e.g., specifically calling out things like a cast bar which you can see on screen and read the text of, if you have average vision or better). It gives them no information a player without that feature wouldn't have, because you can see the castbar and clearly read what the cast is... but it makes the information that is there already accessible in another format.
• A feature which lets you change the color of ground AoEs, so that people who are colorblind (or, y'know, just tired of Phoinix's red-and-orange-and-yellow-with-some-extra-orange color scheme) can make the ground AoEs more visible. It gives them no information that isn't available to other players, the ones who don't need to use the color-correction; those folks can see the AoE already.

When doing design for accessibility in software, these are the sort of things you consider. Not things that make the game easier, because generally folks wanting accessibility options don't want the difficulty reduced, they just want the information that is there already presented in a format which they are capable of perceiving and/or interacting with.

Even if you think that it gives a significant gameplay advantage to have the castbar spoken aloud as well as visible, or in being able to change the AoE color to something that contrasts better for a given fight... if those options are added to the base game, hey, you can use them too!

And maybe, just maybe, if you're struggling with something to the point you think would be easier to perceive and process in a different format -- that it wouldn't just be the same information in a different form, but that it would make gameplay easier from your perspective and provide a meaningful advantage -- there's a chance you might be a bit colorblind, or your vision isn't as good as you thought it is, or whatever else. A chance that maybe the accessibility options would in fact be relevant to you as well.

[SweetestLily]

If you are unable to play on the same level play field as everyone else then you are simply not able and shouldnt demand special treatment, it is unfair to all when a few are given special treatment.

Either all get it or no one gets it.

Seriously?? So people with disabilities should just suffer because they were born disadvantaged? Disgusting take on this.

[Ralphe2449]

Seriously?? So people with disabilities should just suffer because they were born disadvantaged? Disgusting take on this.

Well I am not the one who made them disadvantaged nor the people around them caused them to be disadvantaged therefore we dont owe them anything, you cant expect others to put themselves in a disadvantage just so they feel on equal ground.

So basic things like buff bars that benefit everyone are absolutely fine but nobody should be getting advantages like addons announcing mechanics because you "cant focus on everything important"

If you cant be aware of what is happening during the encounter and need your hand held then you shouldnt be doing such content to begin with, you are just not built for such type of game.

[georgiams]

Well I am not the one who made them disadvantaged nor the people around them caused them to be disadvantaged therefore we dont owe them anything, you cant expect others to put themselves in a disadvantage just so they feel on equal ground.

So basic things like buff bars that benefit everyone are absolutely fine but nobody should be getting advantages like addons announcing mechanics because you "cant focus on everything important"

If you cant be aware of what is happening during the encounter and need your hand held then you shouldnt be doing such content to begin with, you are just not built for such type of game.

Yet it seems pretty important to this community to accommodate with console players even when it means disadvantages for PC players. I never forced anyone nor made anyone use a console, so why should I care about their needs? That's the same type of idiotic logic that isn't even as selfish and immature as saying something like "I didn't make them disadvantaged so why should I care about their needs?" Some games have this feature called "Accessibility features" that offers players who have disabilities some options to help them in gameplay and not just for one issue such as eyesight which is all FFXIV has to offer. Many people can benefit from things like addons or more features to accommodate their disabilities without being involved in your gameplay and overall experience. I'm not even going to bother listing a number of disabilities that prevent people from being able to perform better or on par with everyone else because you honestly should know about enough of them unless you are 12 years old. It's not as simple as getting "advantages" because you "can't focus on everything important" It runs way deeper than that. It affects the gameplay of certain people to the extent they strain themselves or over stress themselves and suffer through trying to keep up with other players. It makes people not want to play this game. Addons being implemented in MMORPG's allow an extremely large amount of features that can help people with disabilities strive much easier and be able to have fun with the game. It implements a choice in how you can alter the surroundings and lack of features in the game so you have a better time. It's not always about someone else having an advantage over other players. If you think that addons that improve gameplay and also aid people with disabilities is giving a group of people an advantage to the game, why not get the addon yourself if it seems so unfair (obviously implying if that feature is ever added to this stale MMORPG). Every game should abide to those with disabilities because forcing them to be excluded from gaming is unfair and wrong. Saying they shouldn't be doing the content in the first place and aren't built for the type of game is one way to show off your immaturity level and ability to have any compassion for others. It's disgusting

[Ralphe2449]

If you think that addons that improve gameplay and also aid people with disabilities is giving a group of people an advantage to the game, why not get the addon yourself if it seems so unfair (obviously implying if that feature is ever added to this stale MMORPG). Every game should abide to those with disabilities because forcing them to be excluded from gaming is unfair and wrong. Saying they shouldn't be doing the content in the first place and aren't built for the type of game is one way to show off your immaturity level and ability to have any compassion for others. It's disgusting

Because the whole point of an encounter is for you to be able to understand and be in control of what is happening in order to survive and beat it, if you fail to do that after a number of wipes because of an internal disability that doesnt let you comprehend what is going on then you are simply not able to complete that type of content, its the truth and reality no matter how harsh it sounds.

Addons that trivialize mechanics like timers and mechanic announcing should never be allowed no matter how much a person feels they "need" them, not only they trivialize mechanics, they make people depend on them so much so that they suddenly cant function when the addons are broken because they NEVER UNDERSTOOD the mechanics in the first place.

It is quite simple, if you hire someone to do a job, you expect them to do the job, if they cant do the job because of an internal disability you simply find an able person to do it. This is reality, I care about results, feel free to care about empathy and feelings if you wish but that does not justify giving advantages to some so they feel they are on equal ground.

[georgiams]

Because the whole point of an encounter is for you to be able to understand and be in control of what is happening in order to survive and beat it, if you fail to do that after a number of wipes because of an internal disability that doesnt let you comprehend what is going on then you are simply not able to complete that type of content, its the truth and reality no matter how harsh it sounds.

Addons that trivialize mechanics like timers and mechanic announcing should never be allowed no matter how much a person feels they "need" them, not only they trivialize mechanics, they make people depend on them so much so that they suddenly cant function when the addons are broken because they NEVER UNDERSTOOD the mechanics in the first place.

It is quite simple, if you hire someone to do a job, you expect them to do the job, if they cant do the job because of an internal disability you simply find an able person to do it. This is reality, I care about results, feel free to care about empathy and feelings if you wish but that does not justify giving advantages to some so they feel they are on equal ground.

And certain features that don't disrupt anyone else's game and or experience can allow people to understand and be in control of what's happening. The thing is, that there are systems that exist that let players with disabilities be on par with everyone else. Other games use them, and not using them is just turning people away from the game that doesn't have those features and onto a game that does. It's not like FFXIV raids are hard, you can afk or auto attack or heal yourself and not participate and still get by fine. No one can tell if you aren't participating much at all in the first place let alone call you out for it and have any evidence to support it. There is harder end game content and 5 man parties that people who have disabilities would struggle doing. If such things easily exist to let everyone participate in the fun, why not have it implemented?

timers and mechanic announcing honestly just prevents constant wiping more than anything. I've been in groups that have taken hours because we wiped constantly on multiple boss fights. Even when you understand the mechanics you can still slip up and having something to let you know whats coming can help, if you really don't need something like that, then don't use it. But there are people that benefit from that sort of thing for many reasons. It also doesn't affect you. You can get by in this game without knowing all that much about your job or boss fights anyway, it would be nothing but an improvement to save people's time and help people who can't go as fast as everyone else. The fact that there are rights for people with disabilities justifies giving features in games to help them play on par with everyone else. The fact that those features so easily already exist justify the reasoning to just add them to the game.

[Ralphe2449]

if you really don't need something like that, then don't use it.

Yeah I am sure people love working harder just so a few can play on easymode with training wheels. The people without such addons need to be more aware, more capable and more efficient compared to the person that relies on such addons and never truly learns because they depend on them like training wheels that never go off, so we got a person who works harder and a person who has their hand held permanently in the same group, this is extremely unbalanced.

And as i explained earlier, those addons shouldnt be tolerated in general to avoid the slippery slope of addon dependence and trivialization of mechanics that has happened in WoW.

If you are not capable of being aware of the encounter's mechanics why are you in that encounter? If you really want the reward you can always buy it from a boost or through an FC but dont pretend you are able to beat it on equal ground like everyone else.

[Xirean]

Because the whole point of an encounter is for you to be able to understand and be in control of what is happening in order to survive and beat it, if you fail to do that after a number of wipes because of an internal disability that doesnt let you comprehend what is going on then you are simply not able to complete that type of content, its the truth and reality no matter how harsh it sounds.

Addons that trivialize mechanics like timers and mechanic announcing should never be allowed no matter how much a person feels they "need" them, not only they trivialize mechanics, they make people depend on them so much so that they suddenly cant function when the addons are broken because they NEVER UNDERSTOOD the mechanics in the first place.

It is quite simple, if you hire someone to do a job, you expect them to do the job, if they cant do the job because of an internal disability you simply find an able person to do it. This is reality, I care about results, feel free to care about empathy and feelings if you wish but that does not justify giving advantages to some so they feel they are on equal ground.

Why do you think discussing assistance with disability means call outs and timers? I'd like to change the color that aoes are displayed in because they made the aoe the same color as the floor.