6.2 Dragoon potential changes/assessment of current (6.11)

[fulminating]

As of 6.11, dragoon is in a really good place with possibly the most satisfying and coherent dps rotation at both level 90 and whilst leveling. The High-jump/mirage dive consolidation is a fair change, particularly now that there are measures against accidentally double weaving it. The shortened jump animation locks are also pretty good changes.

I am not sure what to expect in 6.2 with the announcement last live letter that DRG and AST were next up, but here are my thoughts:

Battle litany and life surge both affect (and effect) crit, which it seems the design team are looking to make less dominant. But the only way that's ever going to change is if they remove the damage scaling from it and make a crit a flat% boost, same as DH.

Dragon sight is slightly clunky without a macro, especially when you're expected to double weave it, so I could see a "dragon partner" style change with a preassigned party member. I don't think this would necessarily be better, as it'd be harder to choose a different target in the event of untimely death. Perhaps baking in a mouseover macro to it could help, but I'm certain that would upset people who don't like <mo>-type inputs.

I suppose people like complaining about beam-type aoes, but realistically that's more a problem with the tank's positioning or lack thereof than inherent to the dragoon. Circular AoEs would not be the answer to this, although if changed I do look forward to watching the samurai and dragoon suddenly evaporate because their battle effects covered the mob pack's aoe indicators. Most of the clunkiness in the beam seems to be trying to use it whilst player and target are moving. It's probably not, but I imagine it's to do with snapshotting and the distance between player and target.

Consolidation of Wheeling Thrust/F&C is a terrible idea for reasons that should be obvious to any and all.

As is adding potency to elusive jump.

A potency increase of say 40-80 on stardiver might make it feel a bit more meaty, but since it's an oGCD there's really quite a low limit on how high its potency can be. On a related note, I don't think making jumps GCDs would be a good move, particularly because the continuous figure-of-eight combo is a big part of the rotation feel.

There are other more bloated jobs that should probably be looked at first - reaper and samurai springing to mind, or empty jobs such as reaper* and summoner that could really do with the addition of another mechanic so they're not enjoying a healer-style rotation.

If reaper is the standard to which they aim to remold all jobs, I remain concerned.

*Below level 80

[Aco505]

I agree with most of what you say. DRG is right now at its best state and it's quite concerning that they want to change it. What exactly brought them to think about DRG and not any other job in particular?

It needs small tweaks and QoL adjustments, but certainly not huge reworks in the middle of the expansion.

That said, the latest Mirage Dive change is dubious: while it got rid of the accidental double-weaving, the grace period added is too long, making double weaving it as tight as before the animation lock reduction. At this point they should just revert the change, since they couldn't anticipate that slapping a normal 1s recast time would bring it very close to the original 1.1s of jumps.

This tightness also causes issues in certain encounters like Dragonsong's Reprise, where you want to get an eye at specific points before a boss leaves, but that this change has made a bit hard to get unless HJ is used extremely early.

Stardiver should not get higher potency than it has now because then we start getting close to the territory of "my Stardiver didn't crit so my DPS fluctuates a lot" that plagues so many other jobs. It is Dragonfire Dive that needs a potency boost, or any kind of added effect/role to make it stand out, since it's a bit lacking for a 120s recast ability.

At this point, Dragon Sight should just be merged with LC, making the former a personal 60s 15-20% buff that is an upgrade to the latter and adjusting the potencies/damage of the rest of the kit depending on the choice made. Other people have advocated for the Dance Partner treatment, with Litany activating the eyes due to their shared 120s recast time.

To be honest, with the loss of the tether, the ability lost its main flavor so I'd just rather go with the first option. It frees one oGCD slot in our burst, and Litany would do too much if it gave the eyes to the DRG and the partner in addition to its normal effect.

There's been extensive discussion on the matter of DRG being busy and button bloat in this thread, should anyone be interested: https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...d-button-bloat.

[AluneTempest]

im agree with all you are saying.

the only changes that DRG need is about the buffs, the rotation and everything else is perfect, straightforward and the most important, is FUN.

[fulminating]

Abbreviated for character count

I think it should be possible to fine-tune the combined HJ/MD delay to an acceptable/usable level, but I agree that fixing something that wasn't broken wasn't the best move, although possibly the least bad option if they do have their heart set on it. At least it wasn't "fixed" as to the same extent as bard's wanderer's/pp. I have little to no information on Dragonsong's Reprise and its intricacies, so I'll take your word for it.

I had seen a few people complaining that Stardiver is a bit of a wet noodle of a capstone ability, but yes dragoon's lack of a singular strike is one of its strengths particularly in preventing how bad it feels to direct crit all your autoattacks around midare/blue midare that didn't crit. Looking at it, dragonfire dive is an even wimpier capstone ability, but I do like how it doesn't have a dropoff on multiple targets. It might be kind of fun if it spread chaos thrust too or had a small burn dot attached. I don't think it'd break any fights that matter, but would feel quite nice in dungeon w2w pulls.

I hadn't considered combining both 120s buffs before. While I'd sooner see the tether returned, even if comically long, that approach does have a certain tidyness to it. I am slightly against having such a broad range of buffs on a single button, I'm not sure there's many others that buff two categories simultaneously?

Thank you for the link, I managed to completely miss it when I was checking for other threads.

[ThorneDynasty]

Am I the only one who liked the 15y tether? Between that and making Earthly Star a completely pointless ground target, it feels like they are slowly dumbing down any distance considerations. Just make every party heal and buff completely decoupled from distance and be done with it. It's not like new sprouts have much reason to learn about proper party positioning at this point anyway (or at least I no longer feel like I should even be trying to offer advice to the MCH hanging back in Narnia, considering the healing bloat too), might as well give up on that concept completely.

[Aco505]

I think it should be possible to fine-tune the combined HJ/MD delay to an acceptable/usable level

Yeah, reducing the grace period to 0.5s, for example, or 0.8s to make it match HJ's animation lock could work too, but I can see other problems arising and then it not being fixed for even more weeks, so that's why MD should just go back to being its own button.

I have little to no information on Dragonsong's Reprise and its intricacies

This is just the most recent example, but these situations are not so uncommon in encounters, or having to double-weave HJ + MD without clipping at the end of the fight for a double life or in other scenarios such as dungeons.

dragoon's lack of a singular strike is one of its strengths particularly in preventing how bad it feels to direct crit all your autoattacks around midare/blue midare that didn't crit

Exactly. Stardiver deals 1240 oGCD potency over 2 minutes (not counting buffs). While it could get a bump in potency (let's say 700), it's other parts of the kit that would benefit more from it. DFD just needs something else because 300 potency every 2 minutes doesn't cut it. I'd rather it have falloff damage but stronger ST potency than stay as it is, though ideally it'd have a better role than just a hard-hitting button without any interaction. Perhaps it could "combo" with STD? Give resources?

I'd sooner see the tether returned, even if comically long. I'm not sure there's many others that buff two categories simultaneously?

I loved the tether and I'd rather it come back, but DS would need a lot of QoL improvements if it stayed like it is now because it's just so clunky. I guess that DNC's Standard Finish is similar to that idea of Litany activating the eyes, but with a buff instead of an attack.

Am I the only one who liked the 15y tether?

I see what you mean and I kind of agree with that. The problem is that more often than not the range was more of a hindrance than anything, especially now that there's a lot of intense mechanics during burst windows and also because of the need for a macro. You could not even reach your melee partner in Intemperance in P1S. The range was also 12 yalms, instead of the 15 yalms that you got in PvP...

I'd rather take this quality of life, even if it looks like it's dumbed down, and have the job be more complex in other aspects. In fact, I'd also appreciate a 20 yalm radius for Litany (and all buffs). For some reason, only BRD's buffs have that radius.

[Recon1o6]

From what yoshida said, he alluded to two things with dragoon
1. reducing the amount of ogcd presses
2. A long term goal at getting rid of crit synergy which drg has in litany. So I'm expecting that will get the chop or a nasty nerf sadly.

These reworks are almost never good. Nearly every job thats been under them has gotten worse. Drk turned into warrior, smn made braindead 1 button rotation. Healers becoming an optional part of the game that only exist for a handful of fights. Machinist base breaking and not resolving any of its ping issues. Monk in its entirety.
In addition, when yoshida has done changes with removing synergy, the job ALWAYS came out worse. Bard and astrologian are perfect examples

Personally, I think what Dragoon needs is its nastrond phase to get something new. Currently dragoon's basically unchanged since stormblood. Shb and Ew was just aoe, qol and a repeat of level 30-50 with the exception of wyrmwind thrust in place of spineshatter. Its just one long rotation with little depth but very strict buff usage pattern in EW though I digress since EW and Shb job changes were a mistake overall and yoshida hates anything resembling job depth that isn't his beloved black mage.


What I'm expecting however is some ogcds being cut, likely dragonsight and litany, and whatever comes out to be worse than before since samurai has shown that not even dps are safe anymore

[YukiB]

As for what I expect, Dragonsight will get axed and Battle Litany turned into a 5% damage buff. For oGCD pruning, they'll remove Life of the Dragon and make Nastrond a separate button that cost two eyes, and upgrades to Stardiver at 80.

As for what I want, nothing really. The job is fun as is, because it's fast and hectic. Maybe turn Dragonsight into a toggle that buffs our ally on Lance Charge or Battle Litany. It might be interesting if Dragonfire Dive added an eye so we could theoretically Life in the opener, but they're not going to do anything that makes the opener even busier.

[Aco505]

From what yoshida said, he alluded to two things with dragoon
1. reducing the amount of ogcd presses
2. A long term goal at getting rid of crit synergy which drg has in litany. So I'm expecting that will get the chop or a nasty nerf sadly.

Personally, I think what Dragoon needs is its nastrond phase to get something new. Currently dragoon's basically unchanged since stormblood. Shb and Ew was just aoe, qol and a repeat of level 30-50 with the exception of wyrmwind thrust in place of spineshatter. Its just one long rotation with little depth but very strict buff usage pattern in EW

They gave us extra charges in the expansion, yet suddenly oGCDs are a problem? We literally only press 2 more buttons in 2-min burst windows than in ShB: one Spineshatter Dive and one Wyrmwind Thrust. In some cases, we do have a Life Surge or an extra WWT, but it depends on how things line up, as the change to Heavens' Thrust's potency means that you almost never want to use LS on a 5th GCD positional.

Crit synergy would be easily addressed if they followed the suggestion laid out in this post (https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...=1#post5880390).

I don't think that the fact that the job hasn't changed too much is bad. If something's good and already works, then it doesn't have to necessarily change. Just polishing, extra tuning. This is what BLM has been getting every expansion: little additions to round up the kit. Why is it DRG that needs to be changed and not BLM or any other job? Big reworks should happen at the beginning of an expansion anyway...

For what it's worth, I believe that an oGCD like Life Surge is good for the job. Yes, right now it's a bit mindless in its use (there should be more instances in which you can use it, not only HT), but it's the only oGCD that interacts with our GCDs and that makes us think a little bit outside burst windows. While many people want it to disappear, it does add a layer that would require some kind of replacement if it was cut. The fact that our GCDs are strict is intended due to how DRG is all about managing oGCDs.

If they want to reduce our buffs from 3 to 2, I'm fine with that. It saves a bit of space. I'd rather not have these changes, but I can compromise. Removing abilities from the only melee that is oGCD-focused would strip it of its identity and make the game less interesting: not all jobs need to be the same, and there's other oGCD jobs out there (GNB or DRK to name a few), will they be changed too?

As for what I expect, Dragonsight will get axed and Battle Litany turned into a 5% damage buff. For oGCD pruning, they'll remove Life of the Dragon and make Nastrond a separate button that cost two eyes, and upgrades to Stardiver at 80.

As for what I want, nothing really. The job is fun as is, because it's fast and hectic. Maybe turn Dragonsight into a toggle that buffs our ally on Lance Charge or Battle Litany. It might be interesting if Dragonfire Dive added an eye so we could theoretically Life in the opener, but they're not going to do anything that makes the opener even busier.

Removing Life of the Dragon would be like removing Astral Fire for BLM, that's not going to happen.

DFD giving an eye requires careful consideration because while it'd allow for a Life window in the opener, it may mess eye management for the whole fight. For instance, we'd enter the first 2-min burst with 1 eye stored, and then get two more immediately through HJ and DFD. If our gauge could store three eyes, but Life only required two... then perhaps, but if that happened, how do you control when you enter or not with Geirskogul? It'd just enter if we have two eyes? And what if we wanted to delay a life with two eyes due to encounter timing?

Life would probably require a rework in the way we enter it if DFD was going to give an eye directly. Perhaps the most elegant solution to giving DRG a Life in the opener would just be to allow us to start duties with 2 eyes. However, the job is tuned with having no Life in the opener, and this becomes obvious in fights like P3S in the reopener after adds or P4-2S if going for a full resource run, when DRG can get insane amounts of potency due to having everything, which I might add is also extremely satisfying!

[YukiB]

Removing Life of the Dragon would be like removing Astral Fire for BLM, that's not going to happen.

It wouldn't happen to BLM. Yoshi P plays BLM.

He doesn't play DRG, so nothing's off the table