On the topic of DRG being busy and button bloat.

[Aco505]

In the last Live Letter, it was said that DRG will have some skills repurposed and readjusted to cut down button bloat and stress and that jobs that are deemed too busy like DRG or AST are currently under discussion from the dev teams as well, with more changes expected for Patch 6.2.

While some of the points I will make can also be found in the DRG feedback thread I made for 6.08 EW (https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...-for-Endwalker) as well as this post (https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...46#post5874246), I believe it is important to re-emphasize them here.

First of all, a job being busy does not have to be a bad thing that needs to be tuned down. DRG is busy indeed, but mainly during the even minute burst windows. The busy feel comes from managing the oGCDs, which most of the time have to come out in a strict order, meaning that it is more of a matter of muscle memory and getting used to it than having to adjust on the fly.

I cannot agree with the fact that DRG is so busy that it has to be adjusted when so many other jobs have burst windows which are as busy or even more and that require more decision-making on the spot. Other melees (NIN, SAM, MNK) or some tanks (DRK, GNB) also fall in this category, and there's nothing wrong with a job being busy in these cases.

DRG has a fixed weaponskill string which only makes us think about our GCDs in three main ways: whether we will overcap scales in the next weaponskill, whether the next GCD will be buffed by Life Surge or not, and whether we will need True North/to adjust our position if the next attack is a positional. Only the 2nd of these is DRG exclusive, the other two are shared by most jobs and all melees respectively.

We don't have weaponskills that can be used between the main combo either, so there's never a need to think about dropping a combo after a while as is the case of RPR.

The rest is, as already stated, oGCD management. If we mostly have to worry about this one thing which is basically fixed in its use, how can it be overwhelming? The beauty of the job is precisely these hectic burst windows in which we unleash all our abilities.

The main issue was the animation lock of jumps and that is going to be fixed in 6.1. DRG needs other quality of life changes such as adjusting Dragon Sight. Its burst windows are more than fine in most cases. It was the change of Battle Litany into a 15s buff that requires us to use most of our abilities in a specific order in as little time as possible. This did not happen in ShB due to Litany being a 20s buff.

In regards to button bloat, DRG is not a job that is button bloated at all. There's other jobs that greatly suffer from this, but not DRG because the only difference between single target and AoE is the weaponskill string employed.

The oGCDs are used in all scenarios, with Spineshatter Dive being the only one that loses relevance in AoE, meaning that we do not have extra buttons solely for AoE abilities as many other jobs do.

If the devs wish to combine the Mirage Dive action into High Jump by making the latter turn into the former in a similar fashion to NIN's Bunshin in order to free up a button, that is fine, despite the fact that I disagree with it, as explained in my feedback post. Mirage Dive can never be removed though with the way Life of the Dragon works now, since it's what allows us the flexibility to choose whether to enter a Life window or not.

The only other actions that they might be thinking of replacing or changing are Dragonfire Dive and Dragon Sight.

Dragonfire Dive should not turn into the "AoE jump" for the aforementioned reasons: we use all of our oGCDs in every scenario and changing this will make the ability irrelevant outside of dungeons. It would also break the iconic moment of a DRG jumping several times in a row during bursts that has been there since ARR.

If the devs want to repurpose this ability, I'd say they should find a way to make it more interesting in its use, rather than converting it into the "AoE jump". I've made suggestions for it such as allowing it to give a scale and/or eye, the latter of the two needing careful consideration so as not to mess up eye management in the whole fight.

As for Dragon Sight, it needs massive quality of life improvements, or it being combined with Lance Charge and turned into a personal 15-20% damage buff with a 60s cooldown, or repurposed to be more interesting in a way similar to Brotherhood or Arcane Circle.

DRG is not a job that needs pruning because it is not button bloated, what it could have is new interesting, engaging or creative ways of making its present kit work.

Other issues such as crit (anti)synergy between or within jobs (see this https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...90#post5880390) so that Life Surge can interact with Battle Litany/crit buffs or any other GCD other than Heavens' Thrust would be more interesting than cutting down on a job that doesn't need it.

[jerome15]

I don't even play dragoon, but I've leveled it to 80 before the expansion and thought the class was fine. I know my limited experience with the class isn't enough to garner much weight to my words about it, but I have been in the same boat as you are now and it's unfortunate that others are in this situation. I think the class should stay as is. It is busy, but like you said it's not a bad thing. It made the class fun. SE needs to stop with this "this class is too busy" nonsense. I've watched 3 of my main classes get gutted the very next expansion (DRK, MNK, SMN) and it needs to stop. I used to play this game a lot, but since ShB when monk got gutted I stopped playing until 5.4 when they made monk changes. After the expansion dropped and it got gutted more I haven't been back since. I played AST as well and the class is fine. Best of luck to you and not having your class become absolute dogshit like other classes have.

[Chopstix]

DRG is fine, what is not fine is that u cannot double weave with jumps (any jump + a quicker oGCD like mirage dive etc) on a 2.5 GCD. That is really bad. Hopefully the 6.1 animation lock changes will allow DRGs to double weave like everyone else.

[tearagion]

Playing devil's advocate I like not being able to doubleweave jumps. It makes them feel weightier which I enjoy; jumps are iconic after all and I enjoy the distinction from other oGCDs. Where this isn't fine, however, is that players with good enough ping can already doubleweave them, so this small step in mitigating ping differences is welcome nonetheless.

On that same note, I agree with your Dragonfire assessment. I don't want to see any jumps relegated to not being used in 50% of scenarios. Frankly such an iconic class of abilities is already somewhat underwhelming.

If anything is on the chopping block (based on their reasoning behind Kaiten) it's Life Surge. It is effectively zero-synergy with Battle Litany, but I still wouldn't advocate for its removal, rather adjusting its effect. If anything feels superfluous about DRG it's Lance Charge (in 2min burst) after you obtain Dragon Sight. I REALLY like that it's a 60s buff compared to Dragon Sight's 120s, but in the context of 120s window lance charge feels like a somewhat excessive or underwhelming button press. Consolidating those skills by making Dragon Sight 60s cd and increasing its personal effectiveness would address "business" better than anything else in my humble opinion. It's also important to keep in mind that while DRG isn't too busy now eventually something will have to be adjusted to make room for new abilities, though I don't like it when they cull too far ahead of time.

[Drachelanze]

Have to agree. I think it's very adequately busy during the even minute bursts, not bloaty. I can see a case for adjusting (or removing?) Life Surge as well, but I don't necessarily think it should be if it's only for the sake of "button bloat." Reworked so it doesn't conflict with crit buffs if anything. I know I'm just regurgitating some talking points right now but there's not a whole lot to say on the matter. I think DRG feels more than fine right now in general.

[AnimusVox]

I think ShB DRG was pretty close to perfect and the changes in EW bloated the job for no reason. Charges on Spineshatter Dive and Life Surge along with the addition of Wyrmwind Thrust made buff windows uncomfortably busy because you cannot afford any drifting. Double weaving High Jump would not be as necessary if we had less oGCDs to press in the first place. Playing around the single weave jump is actually interesting and as, someone else already mentioned, makes it stand out more.
Life Surge, if it's not deleted (which I wouldn't want), needs to go back to a single use skill we don't have to save for buffs. Spineshatter Dive needs to have its potency removed so it can be used for movement (which I believe was the intention behind adding charges to it in the first place).

[CidHeiral]

Totally agree with you. Another player on this forum said Summoner was the canary in the coal mine and all jobs are going that route. I really hope that doesn't end up being the case but what they said about DRG during the live letter really has me concerned, I was honestly baffled when they said it was too busy. This expansion is the most fun I've ever had with DRG. It feels very active and immensely satisfying when you're doing everything right and pumping DPS. Having a mix of jobs that are simple and jobs that are busy is good for the game. If everything is overly simplified you're going to appease a vocal minority and alienate everyone else. The complex job design is what got me hooked on this game to begin with.

I honestly wonder where they're collecting this feedback from?

[paraplu]

I like the current iteration of DRG a lot and doesn't feel it is bloated because, as mentioned, every button fills a purpose in every situation.

While I'm totally cool with jump/mirage dive being the same button, similar to NIN's bunshin, as well as making Dragon Sight closer to Dance Partner to reduce macros/manual targeting, I don't see a strict need to change stuff. I'm not even mad about the animation locks like most DRG are because the single weave jumps, despite their clunkiness, feel unique and powerful.

If burst windows are to be less tight, Life Surge is the least interesting ability to press. Coincidentally, DRG is currently the only melee without a personal defensive utility button. Make the healing from it double as a shield for 10 seconds. You won't need to press it every burst window, but if the shield gets eaten, putting it on HT/5th is still the best option to shoot for. Just adjust potencies somewhere else to make up for the auto-crit.

Dragonfire Dive should not turn into the "AoE jump" for the aforementioned reasons: we use all of our oGCDs in every scenario and changing this will make the ability irrelevant outside of dungeons. It would also break the iconic moment of a DRG jumping several times in a row during bursts that has been there since ARR.

As most SAM mad about kaiten right now will tell you, ST and AoE versions of a skill sharing a cooldown is bad design. The only thing you consider is if there are 3 or more enemies or which animation you find prettier. It sort of works for RPR because they have basically no buttons to press anyway, but even there it feels more like a way to add buttons to make it feel like you have more tools and choices, without actually giving you said tools and choices. DRG having multihitting oGCD's and NIN's mudras, on the contrary, are elegant solutions.

I don't agree with every proposed change by OP, but that's not really point. The point is that what makes DRG fun is managing your 30s oGCDs alongside your 60s and 120s burst windows and putting as much stuff into your buffs as possible. Similar to the very weird WAR change mid SB where the job went from building a resource to "wait for IR to come off CD" (going from 5 to 3 FCs is the best WAR change in EW by a long shot) I don't want DRG to change because... Well it is my baby and I really like it as it is. I'm not a top player, speedkiller or competent enough to clear an ultimate. I make mistakes with drifting my CDs. I make weaving mistakes. I may or may not have jumped in front of the tank during Coherence. But these are things that I can work on and get better at the job with. I don't want SQEX to do it for me.

[Aco505]

It's true that not double-weaving with jumps give them a "unique" feel, but it also reduces flexibility. The issue is that DRG is an oGCD focused job and as such, it makes no sense for jumps to be like that anymore (with the exception of Stardiver if we want), because they make the job too strict: you have no space to weave role actions such as True North, you cannot fit most of your burst within the 15s of Litany without double weaving, and single weaving jumps can cause issues in fights with tight movement or phases where jumps can be dangerous such as Intemperance 1 and 2 in P1S.

What I do want to avoid is the ability to use two jumps in a row without clipping because I'd find it silly, so I'm just hoping that doesn't become the norm in high end content.

Life Surge is indeed an odd ability, but it's not bad per se. What is bothering is that is has anti-synergy with one of our own buffs, and that you practically only use it for Heavens' Thrust, thus having basically no thought behind it. They should make it more engaging by allowing it to be used on other weaponskills such as Chaotic Spring (by perhaps adding 50% of the DoT damage to the initial hit) or a 5th positional combo, just like at the beginning of EW when a 5th under at least one 10% buff was a gain over an unbuffed Heavens' Thrust. Making it more engaging would be a better move than removing it.

I don't see Lance Charge as superfluous because it's similar to MNK: they also have a 60s personal buff, a 120s buff and two other buffs (Riddle of Wind and Perfect Balance). The problem is more that Dragon Sight is just a clunky ability that doesn't have a lot behind it: you're not "excited" for it to come back every 120s, you just press the button. Compare it with other 120s CDs that also have personal effects like Brotherhood or Arcane Circle that provide you with extra things to do, and you easily see why Dragon Sight feels lacking.

The addition of charges to the job in EW just made burst windows a bit busier. You mostly use one Life Surge charge in each odd and sometimes even minute window, and you just add one extra Spineshatter Dive in even windows that you can alternatively use in odd ones instead (though you do lose some small potency by doing so). Wyrmwind Thrust can be weaved at any point without trouble. Basically, we mostly gained 2 oGCDs in even minute windows, can we really say that this is bloated or over the top?

If we compare DRG to RPR, who has at least 6 buttons dedicated exclusively to AoE, with DRG having only 3, we can easily see that there's no bloat. Another question is whether the devs want to integrate Mirage Dive into High Jump's button like Bunshin, but that's the only one that would really work. The transition from ShB to EW removed Blood of the Dragon and gave us Wyrmwind Thrust, so not really new buttons to bind.

In the end, what matters is to make the current kit more engaging or interesting. I provide examples in my 6.08 feedback post but things such as Life Surge usage, improving Dragonfire Dive, overhauling/giving massive quality of life changes to Dragon Sight, giving us a 3rd scale to allow for more flexibility in Wyrmwind Thrust usage, giving us some kind of defensive (off the top of my head, perhaps a passive reducing all damage taken by 5%), etc. would be better things to consider for the job instead of pruning something that works very well and is not broken.

The challenge for 7.0 will be to add something without taking something else away. If they want to change DRG, then they'd have to do it in such a way that the current kit becomes more interesting or different, and not simply prune abilities to make way for others that won't make the job more engaging.

[paraplu]

I don't disagree that jumps are clunky and eat up weave slots, especially weaving true north is annoying (I actually really like the suggestion of freestyling 4th/5th in the other thread). I just enjoy the feel, is all. Mine is an aesthetics argument, yours is a more practical one. We simply weigh these arguments differently from one another.

The ability to throw LS on a 5th hit under buffs for a substantial gain is great for optimisation, but this change doesn't address the perceived problem of 'business.' This is also why I don't comment on proposed changes to Wyrmwind and Dragonfire and their resource interaction, or something like an additional mechanic on DS. While they could potentially be interesting for optimisation, that is not the lens the dev team is communicating to look through, which is (whether we like it or not) to make jobs more accessible.

I can't really comment on what 7.0 should be doing with DRG, big changes will always be a controversial topic in the playerbase. I really dig EW MNK for example, because I prefer blitzes and perfect balance shaking up the GCD combo over more positionals/oGCDs, but at the same time there's plenty fans of its old design. Conversely, I personally dislike MCH's Heat Blast spam, despite a lot of others enjoying it. I'm just glad I'm not the guy whose job it is to collect and organise player feedback.