Doesnt feel like the WoW migration improved the community.

[Ralphe2449]

I do not know where these typical try hard wow youtube streamers are for FFXIV with the exception of xenos

Yeah that is why one of the first videos I see today on the timeline are "Despi Reacts to "FFXIV is Hurting Its Veteran Players" By Misshapen Chair" which is mostly the typical moaning of "omg the game isnt hard enough, the game will die if it doesnt pander to us high end players and high skill content"
And usually react videos mean it aint just some rando that is irrelevant in the FF14 community, this mentality is spreading and it isnt healthy or good for the community.

But feel free to assume i am just some troll account because my character is low level, must have spend hours just watching the story i guess to know everything cuz there's no other explanation xd

[IkaraGreydancer]

If someone says "reduced job identity feels bad," are we to understand that necessarily and always as a claim of fact rather than a claim of opinion despite the content and setting both indicating that adding "I think" before every claim would be little more than redundant, wasted words?

If you says "Healers are objectively useless" that isn't being presented as an opinion. "reduced job identity feels bad" 100% IS being presented as an opinion. I'd rather not start with the gymnastics. It does happen. People indeed do claim something is factual when in reality it's just an opinion at times. Let's stop

[Thaciscokidd]

Which seems weird cuz honestly, if you want to be treated as special for doing high end content you should be going back to WoW that will forever treat non raiders and casual players as 4th class citizens, FF14 is thankfully not following WoW's example.

I can see where you are tying to come from but what about the JPN databases who eat up high end content like its going out of style?

[Coletergeist]

I mean, when I play healer I do feel pretty damn useless. The only time I do feel useful is when I get into a ARR 24 man raid with mostly new folks and then folks be dropping like flies and I get to say to myself, "Aye, tis my once in a while time to shine!" And honestly? I personally feel like it shouldn't be that way, that the only time to feel like a true healer is when people are just dying around me where I can play 'let the bodies hit the floor'.
My opinion, of course. But one shared with many.

[Semirhage]

Yeah, you need to be a tryhard high-end raider who wants impossibly difficult content to think that spending more than 80% of your time on a "rotation" that consists of Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare is boring.

[IdowhatIwant]

Yeah that is why one of the first videos I see today on the timeline are "Despi Reacts to "FFXIV is Hurting Its Veteran Players" By Misshapen Chair" which is mostly the typical moaning of "omg the game isnt hard enough, the game will die if it doesnt pander to us high end players and high skill content"
And usually react videos mean it aint just some rando that is irrelevant in the FF14 community, this mentality is spreading and it isnt healthy or good for the community.

But feel free to assume i am just some troll account because my character is low level, must have spend hours just watching the story i guess to know everything cuz there's no other explanation xd

Did you watch the actual video or any other content by misshapen chair? It is actually really good.

What Misshapen chair is talking about is how FFXIV is lowering the skill ceiling of the jobs, and causing many of the jobs to lose identity, things that many players used to select a job in the first place. So for example, how would you feel if you played summoner from 2.0 playing as a dot mage, with a little big of pet management to purchase a new expansion for your class, to be completely recreated into a mobile caster that uses about two or three buttons. So now this class that you selected, as it played as a dot mage, is now something completely different. Wouldn't feel very good would it? These are the sort of things that hurt the veteran player base.

One of the things that I really enjoyed about this game when I first started playing was this variance in skill floor and skill ceiling with the classes. With HW this got even more interesting IMO but man were there some balance problems. SB began fixing some of these problems, but took some steps on lowering this skill ceiling. ShB made drastic changes and completely lowered this skill ceiling with a large number of changes, and EW has continued down this path. I mean ShB remove agro management from the game... that is a very drastic change for people that have played this game in 2.0. So absolutely many veteran players are being hurt by these changes, but there are many that do not care either.

The video has very little to do with we need more hard content, and more to do with the idea that the class design is suffering due to a skill ceiling that is being lowered, but the only players that care about this skill ceiling are the ones that participate in the harder content. If you are a casual player running a dungeon, first of all you don't have to many opportunities to even push the skill ceiling, second you likely do not care and third it's not necessary. I usually try to hit my skill ceiling in dungeons, but I just enjoy playing the game well and take any opportunity to improve whether it be a dungeon boss, or a savage boss, but you do not have to play the game like me. He wraps it up with essentially being confused as to who these changes are pandering to, as players that do harder content want a skill ceiling, players that don't do savage don't care and wont try to reach a skill ceiling. And I think that is where a lot of players are right now is confused and concerned about why these things are happening and where the game is going exactly.

[Shurrikhan]

If you says "Healers are objectively useless" that isn't being presented as an opinion. "reduced job identity feels bad" 100% IS being presented as an opinion.

The first is also clear hyperbole (outside of a few narrow scenarios in which "useless" would instead be best described as "noticeably inferior to other (role) choices"). But hey, let's pretend the average human is incapable of understanding figurative language or putting content within its contextual frames.

I'd rather not start with the gymnastics. It does happen. People indeed do claim something is factual when in reality it's just an opinion at times. Let's stop

So long as your position is that "it happens," rather than, as before, that the prevalence of this one issue (rather than simply an increased prevalence of things players do not like or, say, increased sensitivity or vocality on the part of players) is THE reason why there's been a greater portion of negative feedback, then fair enough.

How whether negative feedback is phrased (or understood) as objective or subjective would do anything to increase or decrease the portion of negative feedback, though, remains ambiguous at best.

[Ralphe2449]

Did you watch the actual video or any other content by misshapen chair? It is actually really good.

Of course you are aware of him and support him, as expected based on your initial reply.

People can hide under the veneer of "this is just some friendly logical discussion" which is all too easy when you are the only one talking in the video, youtubers arent some authority in how things should or even how they work.
The guy literally is just the typical high end player complaining about the very typical high end player complaint of "the game will die if they dont pander to me", he literally starts the video with "games that dont have a gradual and high skillcap at the end cant keep players playing and addicted" which translates to "pander to me or everyone will leave" completely ignoring that casuals are paying the bills and it is what CASUALS WANT that matters for the MAJORITY of the playerbase, not loud raiders on youtube.
He does have a point though, WoW no matter how terrible it is has a small but very addicted and mentally unhealthy playerbase that is extremely toxic and bad for the community, and I absolutely dont want that for FF14.

He can hide behind arguments and reasoning he made up to support his desire but at the end of the day he just wants a game that fits HIM so he makes up points to support his view, not the playerbase, if anything almost always when such people say "its for the good of the playerbase" they are just lying to others and even themselves possibly to try justify how the thing they want is actually for the good of the game long term without any serious evidence.

See? You and he can paint it any way you want, the reality is that is just an attempt to benefit a MINORITY of high end players at the expense of the MAJORITY of casual players. Something WoW Devs have actually taken to hear and we see the results

That is why I support Yoshida and the FF14 dev team that focuses on casual content and design even if I would prefer some small changes in class design, they are not ruining the game for the majority just because high end players complain and want the game to be about them, a minority.

[Ashpd]

Of course you are aware of him and support him, as expected based on your initial reply.

People can hide under the veneer of "this is just some friendly logical discussion" which is all too easy when you are the only one talking in the video, youtubers arent some authority in how things should or even how they work.
The guy literally is just the typical high end player complaining about the very typical high end player complaint of "the game will die if they dont pander to me", he literally starts the video with "games that dont have a gradual and high skillcap at the end cant keep players playing and addicted" which translates to "pander to me or everyone will leave" completely ignoring that casuals are paying the bills and it is what CASUALS WANT that matters for the MAJORITY of the playerbase, not loud raiders on youtube.
He does have a point though, WoW no matter how terrible it is has a small but very addicted and mentally unhealthy playerbase that is extremely toxic and bad for the community, and I absolutely dont want that for FF14.

He can hide behind arguments and reasoning he made up to support his desire but at the end of the day he just wants a game that fits HIM so he makes up points to support his view, not the playerbase, if anything almost always when such people say "its for the good of the playerbase" they are just lying to others and even themselves possibly to try justify how the thing they want is actually for the good of the game long term without any serious evidence.

See? You and he can paint it any way you want, the reality is that is just an attempt to benefit a MINORITY of high end players at the expense of the MAJORITY of casual players. Something WoW Devs have actually taken to hear and we see the results

That is why I support Yoshida and the FF14 dev team that focuses on casual content and design even if I would prefer some small changes in class design, they are not ruining the game for the majority just because high end players complain and want the game to be about them, a minority.

There's something you don't understand, let me translate it into your language for your brain.
When your class consists of 1-2 buttons that you press 90% of the time, it's boring and bad, even on the part of casual players, because it's BORING. Period.
P.S. TitanMan, come back. Better yours troll post, than Yoshi white knight's who don't understand why community upset about deleting job's personality.

[IdowhatIwant]

Of course you are aware of him and support him, as expected based on your initial reply.

Yup I think he articulates my personal complaints with the game very will in this video.

He can hide behind arguments and reasoning he made up to support his desire but at the end of the day he just wants a game that fits HIM so he makes up points to support his view, not the playerbase, if anything almost always when such people say "its for the good of the playerbase" they are just lying to others and even themselves possibly to try justify how the thing they want is actually for the good of the game long term without any serious evidence.

No the video is accurate, having a high skill cap on classes mostly affects those that are doing high end content. It is how the game was, and it is not how the game is now. So yes, players that enjoyed that are not happy with the direction the game has gone. Even the JP player base has made complaints about this as well, which is why in the recent patch reading for 6.1 Yoshi P expressed that he wants detail on the direction players prefer they go with class changes both in focus points of identity and complexity / simplification. He also stated that he will eventually go into detail the reason why Kaiten was removed from samurai and discuss the direction they are intending to go with job design as well.

See? You and he can paint it any way you want, the reality is that is just an attempt to benefit a MINORITY of high end players at the expense of the MAJORITY of casual players. Something WoW Devs have actually taken to hear and we see the results

That is why I support Yoshida and the FF14 dev team that focuses on casual content and design even if I would prefer some small changes in class design, they are not ruining the game for the majority just because high end players complain and want the game to be about them, a minority.

I always love when players try to paint this picture that only a minority of players do end game content while a majority of players are casual players. This view completely excludes the JP community. A majority of the JP community participates in high end content. A majority of the NA player base is casual players. That is why we get both casual and high end content. So you are aware as well, Yoshi P has stated that he is a fan of more challenging MMO games and content, so when you state things like Yoshi and the devs focus on casual content, that is false. So really you are wanting to ignore the Japanese player base and only cater to the NA/EU player base, which is kind of racist. Yoshi P is Japanese too you know?