What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[KizuyaKatogami]

Did she not say she was waiting until humanity was ready for it? And if thats what it says I thought her plan was for him to keep the planet protected until we were ready to take on Meteion or long enough for us to flee. Clearly she knew it wouldn't last or at least had a hunch hence why she put the moon plan in place. I don't take that as Zodi being her plan from the start, moreso something she worked into her plan.

As far as Aphi goes. One can say what they will and won't accept until it's presented to them in a way that changes their outlook or perception of it. There's views I held before that changed based on my stage in life or the context surrounding it. Thats not a taboo occurrence. That argument basically boils down to you being upset someone didn't have an issue with something they previously did. People change, simple as that.

And while it's an obvious statement what's implied will vary person by person based on their own biases

No, i’m upset because the characters go from the last patch of the prior expansion questioning hydaelyn and then all of the sudden the character that was most sus about her let’s her take over her body… The bias again, is obvious. Also…it doesn’t matter what she said. People died because she refused to tell them the truth. More people died because of the sundering. If the ancients had been able to combat Meteion with venat’s knowledge, then she spilled an immense amount of blood for no reason other than she lost hope in her people….in an expansion where one of the main themes is not losing hope, and something she of all people preaches constantly.

[Vahlnir]

No, i’m upset because the characters go from the last patch of the prior expansion questioning hydaelyn and then all of the sudden the character that was most sus about her let’s her take over her body… The bias again, is obvious. Also…it doesn’t matter what she said. People died because she refused to tell them the truth. More people died because of the sundering. If the ancients had been able to combat Meteion with venat’s knowledge, then she spilled an immense amount of blood for no reason other than she lost hope in her people….in an expansion where one of the main themes is not losing hope, and something she of all people preaches constantly.

Yeah, the entire thing sort of collapses in on itself with enough thought. But a lot of that came from having to write a story for an MMORPG. In order to make some of the more reasonable choices they'd have had to redesign the entire game afterwards to reflect the changes that would have been (potentially) made if Venat HAD come out and said "Look guys, we've got a problem. AND DON'T ARGUE WITH ME, EMET. YOU'VE HAD YOUR MEMORY SCRUBBED!" Something like this could have been done to some degree in a one-off or even a double game/trilogy single player RPG, but it'd be near impossible to do with an MMO that relies on repetitive grinds (like every MMO, really) and a consistent game world requiring only minor changes when the need arises. That is why it doesn't make sense. It just...can't by default, for lack of a better word.

[KizuyaKatogami]

Yeah, the entire thing sort of collapses in on itself with enough thought. But a lot of that came from having to write a story for an MMORPG. In order to make some of the more reasonable choices they'd have had to redesign the entire game afterwards to reflect the changes that would have been (potentially) made if Venat HAD come out and said "Look guys, we've got a problem. AND DON'T ARGUE WITH ME, EMET. YOU'VE HAD YOUR MEMORY SCRUBBED!" Something like this could have been done to some degree in a one-off or even a double game/trilogy single player RPG, but it'd be near impossible to do with an MMO that relies on repetitive grinds (like every MMO, really) and a consistent game world requiring only minor changes when the need arises. That is why it doesn't make sense. It just...can't by default, for lack of a better word.

Oh yeah i get that for sure. I’m just tired of people acting like it makes soooo much sense and if it doesn’t make sense to you you’re just not paying attention. The whole entirety of the Elpis plot is just poorly done. They should’ve just had us explore via the echo rather than actually going there. Because as it is, there’s a massive plot crater in that we know the echo can show others our memory, so Venat could’ve done that. There’s also the kind of….really messed up problem of pandaemonium, where were expected to just hang around these ancients and pretend like they aren’t all going to be murdered soon.

[Vahlnir]

Oh yeah i get that for sure. I’m just tired of people acting like it makes soooo much sense and if it doesn’t make sense to you you’re just not paying attention. The whole entirety of the Elpis plot is just poorly done. They should’ve just had us explore via the echo rather than actually going there. Because as it is, there’s a massive plot crater in that we know the echo can show others our memory, so Venat could’ve done that. There’s also the kind of….really messed up problem of pandaemonium, where were expected to just hang around these ancients and pretend like they aren’t all going to be murdered soon.

I think it would have better to tell it in another way, yeah. Maybe frame it as the Ancients struggling and ultimately failing to defeat Meteion despite the warning and their best efforts, which would have made her at least appear as more of a threat. And upon disagreeing with the thought of sacrificing themselves to summon a primal, Venat thought the best course of action would be to Sunder their world to give us a chance. Or something. Idk. lol I think they did Zodiark dirty too after a decade of build up. He had been framed as the big bad from the start, and he got possessed by some washed up Allagan-turned-Ascian resulting in a WoW Classic Ragnaros moment. "TOO SOON, FANDANIEL!"

[IkaraGreydancer]

Oh yeah i get that for sure. I’m just tired of people acting like it makes soooo much sense and if it doesn’t make sense to you you’re just not paying attention. The whole entirety of the Elpis plot is just poorly done. They should’ve just had us explore via the echo rather than actually going there. Because as it is, there’s a massive plot crater in that we know the echo can show others our memory, so Venat could’ve done that. There’s also the kind of….really messed up problem of pandaemonium, where were expected to just hang around these ancients and pretend like they aren’t all going to be murdered soon.

Well to some of us it does make sense. I doubt many of us are just "acting". I wouldn't tell anyone they weren't paying attention. Some of us by nature just absorb it differently.

Also I'd say Pandemonium is a bit to early to call as well still don't know how that links to the current day were in. I'd like to wait n see that unfold. I'm just happy Elidibus is a center piece

[Vahlnir]

Also I'd say Pandemonium is a bit to early to call as well still don't know how that links to the current day were in. I'd like to wait n see that unfold. I'm just happy Elidibus is a center piece

Yeah, we don't know enough about the raid quite yet. I'm hoping it gets better because while the bosses themselves are neat looking and mostly fun to fight, the story just isn't there yet. They could end up surprising us with how it all comes together later, but they also might not. But yeah, we'll have to see. It's not a bad start, but I'm not sold on it just yet. The final boss theme tells a bit of the story itself I think. Based on the lyrics to Hic Svnt Leones it has the potential to be very interesting. It was the same deal with Alexander's boss theme Locus back in the day. Basically told the entire story of the raid, though not in great enough detail to give it all away.

[Lauront]

I think it would have better to tell it in another way, yeah. Maybe frame it as the Ancients struggling and ultimately failing to defeat Meteion despite the warning and their best efforts, which would have made her at least appear as more of a threat. And upon disagreeing with the thought of sacrificing themselves to summon a primal, Venat thought the best course of action would be to Sunder their world to give us a chance. Or something. Idk. lol I think they did Zodiark dirty too after a decade of build up. He had been framed as the big bad from the start, and he got possessed by some washed up Allagan-turned-Ascian resulting in a WoW Classic Ragnaros moment. "TOO SOON, FANDANIEL!"

IMO, my problem is their fixation on trying (rather poorly, at that) to justify the Sundering. Had they just let it remain an accident due to some game of telephone gone wrong, with a third party eager to devour the world taking advantage/instigating it, it would have worked better in my eyes. If the story continued to try justify removing the ancients or pushing the sundered at their expense, it'd be no better IMO. At least the comfort I have with what they did run with, in spite of how poorly executed it is, is that it does such a shoddy job of justifying Venat even as it trips over itself trying to do so. I'll definitely agree with you about Zodiark, but trying to force him into a trial, with those being watered down as they are now, was always going to have this issue... I'd have liked to see the two primals fuse together to end the Final Days's cause, tbh.

[Vahlnir]

IMO, my problem is their fixation on trying (rather poorly, at that) to justify the Sundering. Had they just let it remain an accident due to some game of telephone gone wrong, with a third party eager to devour the world taking advantage/instigating it, it would have worked better in my eyes. If the story continued to try justify removing the ancients or pushing the sundered at their expense, it'd be no better IMO. At least the comfort I have with what they did run with, in spite of how poorly executed it is, is that it does such a shoddy job of justifying Venat even as it trips over itself trying to do so. I'll definitely agree with you about Zodiark, but trying to force him into a trial, with those being watered down as they are now, was always going to have this issue... I'd have liked to see the two primals fuse together to end the Final Days's cause, tbh.

It could have been framed as a last ditch effort to defeat Meiteon as well instead of a "Wow, you guys are crazy, but not as crazy as I am!" by Venat. lol Perhaps they exhausted all possible options, and Zodiark wasn't doing it either. There's so many other ways they could have handled that part of the story.

[Lauront]

I'd have liked to see them push something so bad it required collaboration between the remaining Ascians (and yes, including Emet's ghost because we know they wanted to draw on that) and the protagonists as well as both primals. That to me would be a very compelling narrative arc, especially with all we learnt in SHB, and particularly if they threaded together the fate of the ancient world, the Dragonstar, the Omicrons' world etc. without the very bizarre approach they resorted to in EW, with entire stars written off with a few lines in a report. I'd probably dispense with Meteion altogether because I'd much rather see some manner of otherworldly life form like the High Seraph be the cause behind this all.

[KizuyaKatogami]

Well to some of us it does make sense. I doubt many of us are just "acting". I wouldn't tell anyone they weren't paying attention. Some of us by nature just absorb it differently.

Also I'd say Pandemonium is a bit to early to call as well still don't know how that links to the current day were in. I'd like to wait n see that unfold. I'm just happy Elidibus is a center piece

But there’s a lot of objective writing failures that are either plot contradictions,plot holes, or just overall forgetful writing. Those don’t make sense, people can headcanon in ways so that it does make sense like for example you mentioned earlier with the ancients and the plenty, but in the expansion that was supposed to be tying up all these loose ends, we’re left with far more questions than answers. It’s pretty bad when they had to answer a lot of very important questions that have been around since ARR in an out of game QnA….and did so pretty half assedly.