What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[KizuyaKatogami]

Yeah, but who was the person who typically saved them FROM those "various dangers"? The entirety of ARR was basically, "Thank you gallant hero, for saving us from [insert hostile thing here]. We will deal with the fallout for now, but we know that we can depend on thee to defend us when the time comes, oh brave hero."

ARR was pure fluff set-up without resolution. Throwing out as many concepts as possible and seeing which ones land for future quests/stories. But 90% of all of them go through the same "Zero to Hero" routine.

And yes, again, I get it: you don't like G'raha. He's the symbol of everything wrong with the game, apparently. But, for better or worse, you are in a substantial minority.

What does being a minority have anything to do with anything? So what a minority isn’t allowed to have an opinion? Why even comment on that lol. As far as fluff….i don’t think ARR was anywhere near fluff, at least when compared to ShB and EW. Back then the game and it’s characters actually had consequences for their actions and stakes. Nowadays it’s literally nothing but fluff lunch dates and tea sipping.

[aveyond-dreams]

It's a big difference between getting a "Thank you for saving us!" at the end of a conflict vs "omgomgomg is that THE Estinien??? omg uwu sparkle dust insert heart eyes here" nonsense we've been seeing lately.

ARR was definitely very all over the place and I would have quit had they not shown off Ishgard around level 30 or so. When it comes to G'raha, his character reads too much like a fanfic and more often than not fails to contribute to any meaningful storytelling these days. His arc is over. Get him off my screen or at the very least give me the option to avoid his interactions.

Even Persona games don't force you to hang out with people you don't like or care about. G'raha Tia is an unusual looking character with offputting behavior that does more to turn me off this game than giving me a reason to go play it. I was hooked onto this game in the ARR/Heavensward when people acted a lot more serious than they do now. I don't mind funny moments but it is becoming overbearing and the rest of the storytelling is suffering for it due to apparent lack of resources for anything else.

[CrownySuccubus]

There's a reason most RPG's have the dignity to allow the player character to consent to crushes and outright relationships. Especially in games where the player character isn't a pre-created one but one with significant room to tweak them to one's liking.

Consent in general is the issue with this game's story. The Ancients didn't consent to genocide. There's no ability to consent to having weird one sided crushes forced onto the player character by various NPC's that we may or may not even like or be interested in.

Of course, anyone who points out such issues on either front usually gets subjected to gaslighting in response...

Okay? Again, G'raha is a fan-favorite character who is almost universally praised outside of everyone within the group of people that frequent this thread.

Also, not sure what "consent" has to do with this, really. G'raha is just happy to be around the player. He's not touching them inappropriately.

What does being a minority have anything to do with anything? So what a minority isn’t allowed to have an opinion?

An opinion is just fine. But that's all it is: an opinion. It's not a universal viewpoint or truth. My point is that this viewpoint is definitely not based on any sort of objectivity or consensus.

It's a big difference between getting a "Thank you for saving us!" at the end of a conflict vs "omgomgomg is that THE Estinien??? omg uwu sparkle dust insert heart eyes here" nonsense we've been seeing lately.

Thus what I said. The difference between then and now was that we saved a faction or two and it was like "You saved us! You're swell!" and now it's "OMG you saved the world! You're the best ever!". The game never stopped shilling the WOL. The difference is the scale of it.

[Theodric]

It's a thread specifically created to relay concerns about the story and characters within it in a fandom that is notorious for shutting down and suppressing feedback and criticism.

Nor do I think anyone needs to specifically point out that everything they're saying is their own personal opinion.

As for what 'consent' has to do with things, some of us don't want our characters to be fawned over by an underage girl or a creepy cat boy who doesn't seem to understand the concept of 'personal space'.

Especially in a game that allows the player character to marry other player characters - which makes multiple characters in this game the equivalent of an attempted homewrecker each time they not so subtly imply that they have a crush on the player character.

I can't say I've ever seen G'raha 'universally praised' either. It's the same with Venat. Whoever screams the loudest is the most prominent but many people keep silent because they'd rather not deal with the nuttier fanboys and fangirls that prowl the depths of Twitter and Reddit deliberately seeking out every mention of their 'faves' to attack anyone speaking negatively about them. Or insisting that you must like X, Y or Z no matter what because of the 'tHeMeS' of the story.

[Skyborne]

I get that you are trying to be the 'devil's advocate' trying to shake us out of our deluded stale circlejerk but this is a thread about a minority venting their opinion about a story that seems to be universally praised and fellated. Could it be that people have a reason to want to stay away from the 'majority' sometimes?

The fawning was there since ARR, but as you said yourself, the scale of it changed, and with our corresponding fame came characters who seem to revolve almost entirely around us that are in the Main Character Friend Group and thus cannot really be avoided and you have to just grit your teeth or smash the skip cutscene button (unless for whatever reason they don't let you, it's happened). As opposed to some random NPC #5395 Farmer Sneed who thanks us for slaying all the deepvoid deathmice who threatened his harvest.

I was silently cheering for you when you were locking horns with the Word of Mother, btw, even if it's a Sisyphean task. I just do not have the energy to do that 24/7 on every single social media site like certain people.

[CrownySuccubus]

It's a thread specifically created to relay concerns about the story and characters within it in a fandom that is notorious for shutting down and suppressing feedback and criticism.

Nor do I think anyone needs to specifically point out that everything they're saying is their own personal opinion.

Feedback and criticism is fine, but again, this thread's opinions are niche. They are not objective or a vast consensus.

A lot of the criticisms made are being made to sound like certain criticism are facts. Such as this whole "G'raha and consent" thing.

As for what 'consent' has to do with things, some of us don't want our characters to be fawned over by an underage g0irl or a creepy cat boy who doesn't seem to understand the concept of 'personal space'.

Again: okay?

The player does not and probably won't ever have a choice over what characters they interact with in the story. Even if, for the sake of argument, the story gets rid of the Scions and adds some totally new characters, it's not like the devs are going to create a branching narrative that accounts for it you want to team up with "Puppy-Dog-Eyes Tia" or the new "Super-Contrarian-Tough-Guy". You personally may like it better, but the game still isn't going to give you a choice about it.

I can't say I've ever seen G'raha 'universally praised' either. It's the same with Venat. Whoever screams the loudest is the most prominent but many people keep silent because they'd rather not deal with the nuttier fanboys and fangirls that prowl the depths of Twitter and Reddit deliberately seeking out every mention of their 'faves' to attack anyone speaking negatively about them. Or insisting that you must like X, Y or Z no matter what because of the 'tHeMeS' of the story.

You can complain about "the depths of Twitter and Reddit" if you like, but it's basically the same within these forums: a bunch of people shouting the same opinions back at each other. Everybody's in their own little factions. (And again, there's nothing wrong with that.) But, there's absolutely no doubt that the number of factions which have unironic praise and love for the plot and characters is far higher than the ones that do not. You can call it "shouting down", but that only proves that outside of small spaces like this one, the Song of Criticism is being swallowed by the Song of Enthusiastic Praise.

I get that you are trying to be the 'devil's advocate' trying to shake us out of our deluded stale circlejerk but this is a thread about a minority venting their opinion about a story that seems to be universally praised and fellated. Could it be that people have a reason to want to stay away from the 'majority' sometimes?

If people want to circlejerk, that's fine. They shouldn't get defensive when people POINT OUT that it's a circlejerk, though.

The fawning was there since ARR, but as you said yourself, the scale of it changed, and with our corresponding fame came characters who seem to revolve almost entirely around us that are in the Main Character Friend Group and thus cannot really be avoided and you have to just grit your teeth or smash the skip cutscene button (unless for whatever reason they don't let you, it's happened). As opposed to some random NPC #5395 Farmer Sneed who thanks us for slaying all the deepvoid deathmice who threatened his harvest.

Right. That's pretty much exactly what I'm saying.

[Theodric]

How did constantly pushing Sylvanas at every turn in World of Warcraft work out for Blizzard? Her fans were always very vocal and drowned out the opposing voices on many fronts and the development team directly catered to those very same fans at almost every turn. It's widely considered to be one of the main reasons why the game's story became unenjoyable.

I don't think there's a reliable way to say whether a character is truly 'popular' or not. Most people don't engage with polls by virtue of never receiving one in the first place.

Furthermore, a lot of people in this thread are on record asking for more variety in terms of the character dynamics that exist within the circle of contacts our character regularly interacts with. Especially since a lot of players have very different personalities, beliefs and opinions. By doubling down on making every character think and believe the exact same things, all the development team are really accomplishing is courting a very 'samey' fanbase.

Though if nothing else, if the supposed 'majority' can't understand why it's a bad thing for genocide to be pushed on an entire species because they didn't react to tragedy the way some deluded individual wanted them to...then does that not reveal that the opinions of the majority are flawed?

[RedaAlert]

This whole "we are the silent majority, while they are the vocal minority" is ridiculous and not backed by facts at all.

I may not like G'raha the way this game wants me to like him, but to say he is not a fan favorite is pretty, what twitch culture would label as, copium.

Ofcourse no character is meant to be universally loved, and if you hate him all power to you, and if you like him all power to you. But again, that character was ranked high in many polls, among them is the famitsu magazine popularity poll which he came 2nd, who is also extremely popular among the Japanese, Chinese, and Korean audience, that even the Chinese audience gave him a nick name of "little red cat", not to mention the English audience, and not to mention all the thousands of fanarts each with thousands of likes and such. Sorry to shatter expectations, but he is extremely popular, even among big streamers on twitch.

But if you want to believe that he is hated by every soul in the game but the people are scared to voice their dislike cause they think his fans are assassins who want to take them out if they uttered a word against him, you are allowed to think that too. But we can also be honest with ourselves, the character has his moments where you know he is good, and if he only had those moments, no one would've felt offended by him.

[Skyborne]

"Circlejerk" 99% of the time is used with a negative connotation (hence me using it sarcastically), and the clarion call of people who insert themselves into a previously pleasant convo in the most aggressive and patronizing way possible -- with the insinuation that if you don't immediately listen to and consider their opinion (no matter how poorly phrased it may be or if it's been heard and considered but discarded numerous times before) then you are simply some shameful close-minded person who didn't change their mind like they are obligated to do. And if the people this is directed to don't take to well to it, then well, it just proves they are circlejerking and closed-off!

And, well, telling people how they should feel doesn't exactly work well either. Baiting a reaction, hmmmmmmmmmmmm...


here is your last (you)

[Theodric]

'Fan favourite' characters are often promoted by a fandom supressing other characters that have their own share of fans, though. How many more people would speak up in favour of liking the likes of Varis, Nabriales or Gaius if they weren't immediately accused of supporting 'fascism', 'bigotry' or 'genocide' the moment they did so pretty much anywhere that the game is discussed?

Nobody is saying that G'raha isn't popular. They're simply outlining that the degree of popularity is often inflated and they're by no means universally well liked. Now, if the game wants to insist on pretending as if everybody has to like or appreciate his presence then that becomes a problem. All some of us are asking for is for G'raha to be dialled back a little and for more variety to exist within the rest of our travelling companions. Not all of us are interested in literally every character in the game existing to praise our self insert after all.