Rescue needs to go away.

[Gemina]

I have been rescued out of something I couldn't get out of maybe 2 times.

I have been "rescued" when already safe and INTO AOE's, dropping platforms, and one kill mechanics more than I can count.

It's a nice idea, but I should have a say whether I want people to move me or not.

You should have just said this. It is clearly the true problem you have with the skill. Don't weaken your argument with pretext.

The majority of healers who use Rescue are aware of the mechanics in the encounter. If you get rescued unexpectedly (which should be almost always), it's because you are in a bad spot. IOW, the healer is more aware of what is going on than you are.

[Krotoan]

You should have just said this. It is clearly the true problem you have with the skill. Don't weaken your argument with pretext.

The majority of healers who use Rescue are aware of the mechanics in the encounter. If you get rescued unexpectedly (which should be almost always), it's because you are in a bad spot. IOW, the healer is more aware of what is going on than you are.

How does giving the example that the majority of the time I am rescued, It is either done maliciously, ignorantly, or unneeded weaken the argument for saying I don't want OTHER people deciding where I stand or at least I'd like the option to refuse? If I wanted other people to play the game for me I wouldn't play and if I wanted to play a griefing game I'd play one with worldwide PVP.

[MiaShino]

How does giving the example that the majority of the time I am rescued, It is either done maliciously, ignorantly, or unneeded weaken the argument for saying I don't want OTHER people deciding where I stand or at least I'd like the option to refuse? If I wanted other people to play the game for me I wouldn't play and if I wanted to play a griefing game I'd play one with worldwide PVP.

You have most strong feelings about this skill and cannot help but sense there is a story under the surface somewhere about why.

Seriously though a single tank can more easily grief with provoke or shirk then one healer abusing rescue. No one is "playing the game for you" by attempting to utilize tools given to them however misguided some uses may be. Have seen one perhaps two improper rescues during entire time playing and my luck is fricken terrible. Have seen plenty of the tanks spinning bosses into the team, especially Titania.

[Krotoan]

You have most strong feelings about this skill and cannot help but sense there is a story under the surface somewhere about why.

Seriously though a single tank can more easily grief with provoke or shirk then one healer abusing rescue. No one is "playing the game for you" by attempting to utilize tools given to them however misguided some uses may be. Have seen one perhaps two improper rescues during entire time playing and my luck is fricken terrible. Have seen plenty of the tanks spinning bosses into the team, especially Titania.

I just told you the history of why I dislike the skill. People abuse it and I have no say in that. A couple times it was helpful, the rest of the time which is also the MAJORITY of the time it has been used either badly, incorrectly, or maliciously.

If I could think of a way to stop people from being jerks or being ignorant then we'd try that, but my personal opinion is give them the least amount of opportunities to do so.


You can see some examples in this thread of people thinking they know better than the person and then using rescue to put them where they want them. Sometimes it saves someone.. BUT maybe that person had another plan though? Maybe they were ready to deal with it with a movement skill or teleport? Maybe that person had a cooldown they were willing to burn to mitigate? It's apparent that some people who use the skill use it to play (however briefly) for other people, because they think that person is playing "wrong".

I get healing is boring AF for some. I get that REMOVING something that has utility would be bad. I would like others to get that while the skill can be useful and helpful, not everyone enjoys that "help" and sometimes it can be downright detrimental.

[Packetdancer]

BUT maybe that person had another plan though? Maybe they were ready to deal with it with a movement skill or teleport? Maybe that person had a cooldown they were willing to burn to mitigate? It's apparent that some people who use the skill use it to play (however briefly) for other people, because they think that person is playing "wrong".

I actually agree that Rescue should not be used as the default. The NIN might be planning to Shukuchi, the BLM might be planning to Aetherial Manipulation, etc. (Or heck, the person might actually be expecting a Rescue. I have, on very rare occasions, had someone ask me to rescue them into the right spot to save time during a mechanic; if you explicitly ask, sure, I'll do it starting with the first pull. Susano has an excellent Rescue-cheese spot, for instance.)

But if someone dies to a mechanic repeatedly, forcing me to repeatedly burn MP -- and potentially time in order to slow-rez them -- across multiple pulls... I admit after a certain point, I will probably cease to care what their plan is. Because whatever it is, clearly it isn't working.

[Krotoan]

But if someone dies to a mechanic repeatedly, forcing me to repeatedly burn MP -- and potentially time in order to slow-rez them -- across multiple pulls... I admit after a certain point, I will probably cease to care what their plan is. Because whatever it is, clearly it isn't working.

Think on this perhaps. If given the opportunity and swap of roles, do you want someone else (however "correct" it may be) to do the right move for you? Honestly and truly do you want someone else to grab control from you and MAKE you do the right thing? I remember I was part of another discussion of how much people were disgusted that someone else could possibly make their beloved character appear differently on a screen they would never see (glamour "normalization", interesting discussion) ... but they're perfectly fine here letting someone make gameplay decisions for them.

I agree with the earlier suggestion there be a toggle to allow or disallow rescue (and other movements not initiated by the player themselves or mechanics, barring PVP of course). Then choice is restored and I have no further qualm.

[Ranaku]

Think on this perhaps. If given the opportunity and swap of roles, do you want someone else (however "correct" it may be) to do the right move for you? Honestly and truly do you want someone else to grab control from you and MAKE you do the right thing? I remember I was part of another discussion of how much people were disgusted that someone else could possibly make their beloved character appear differently on a screen they would never see (glamour "normalization", interesting discussion) ... but they're perfectly fine here letting someone make gameplay decisions for them.

I agree with the earlier suggestion there be a toggle to allow or disallow rescue (and other movements not initiated by the player themselves or mechanics, barring PVP of course). Then choice is restored and I have no further qualm.

By that logic healers shouldn't heal at all, they are forcing heals onto the poor other players without consent! And what with the ranged dps buff, thanks i want to decide on my own how fast i go and how much damage i take!

[Packetdancer]

Think on this perhaps. If given the opportunity and swap of roles, do you want someone else (however "correct" it may be) to do the right move for you? Honestly and truly do you want someone else to grab control from you and MAKE you do the right thing?

By queuing into group content, I am implicitly agreeing to be a team player, and use the toolkit that SQEX has provided me to do my part to get everyone through the content we're now in. That includes things like "equipping your job stone", "turning on tank stance", "not just DPS'ing and refusing to heal anyone", and so on. Rescue is a part of that toolkit; I do not use it often, because its timing is "weird" at best, and can often just result in pulling someone to you after it is too late, and also people do not like it. But it is there to be be used, and in those few cases where I think it is merited, yes, I will use it.

And if I'm the one being Rescued? No, I don't like it; it's jarring and can feel embarrassing. But if they Rescued me to keep me alive and keep things moving smoothly, I personally also consider it justified.

Despite this, as I have said several times, if Rescue causes this much bitterness, then fine, take it out in the name of community harmony. But then give healers something in return. Something unique to healers, ideally. Preferably some way to potentially avoid needing to pay 2400 and slow-rez someone, which is what Rescue can be.

(In contrast, what you may recall I strongly objected to in the glamour thread you reference was the idea that people who didn't like the glamour being changed—and potentially having screenshots of their character in gear that they didn't feel represented them—should be mollified by having it be that if someone turns off seeing anyone else's glamour it turns everyone into the default version of their race/gender when you first enter the character creator; that way, it wasn't their character. Which I get was intended to be the "see, everyone wins!" solution. However, those default characters, generally speaking, tend to be very fair-skinned. And glamour notwithstanding, I found—and still find—the suggestion that a game add a toggle to make dark-skinned characters functionally "disappear" to be one with some implications I'd define as "maybe a little problematic", whether or not those implications were the intention. I consider that a wildly different scenario than "someone moved my character for me" in a whole bunch of different ways. However, that is not really relevant to this thread.)

I agree with the earlier suggestion there be a toggle to allow or disallow rescue (and other movements not initiated by the player themselves or mechanics, barring PVP of course). Then choice is restored and I have no further qualm.

Again: this is worse than just removing Rescue, because now you are either wasting time trying to Rescue someone who has it disabled—and this game has problems enough with server tick and weird timings, given how often Surecast or Arm's Length will just ghost on people—or just ensuring that healers never use Rescue at all (because they have no guarantee it'll work).

If it is a choice between some sort of convoluted toggle or getting rid of it, please just get rid of it and give healers some other party utility, rather than removing the ability to actually use it but pretending it's still here.

There is nothing healers can do that cannot be done by at least one non-healer, save snatching someone from the jaws of death. Red Mage and Summoner can rez, and (in a pinch) heal, if not terribly well. Gunbreaker can heal effectively enough to keep themselves and a black mage alive through the boss fights in The Dead Ends; I know this, because I have done it. (Heart of Corundum is a hell of a thing...) Bard can Esuna. Etc.

If Rescue is a point of this much bitterness, then perhaps it should be taken out. But then genuinely, actually remove it, and give healers something both unique and useful in its stead. Don't gut it, prop the corpse up in a chair, then point at it and go "Look! You don't need something to replace Rescue, Rescue's still here!"

[Gemina]

How does giving the example that the majority of the time I am rescued, It is either done maliciously, ignorantly, or unneeded weaken the argument for saying I don't want OTHER people deciding where I stand or at least I'd like the option to refuse? If I wanted other people to play the game for me I wouldn't play and if I wanted to play a griefing game I'd play one with worldwide PVP.

You're doing it again. Like quite literally the exact same thing I just mentioned. You are pretexting your true feelings [argument] about the skill with what is anecdotal evidence at best. What you truly dislike about Rescue is that another player can change your position against your will.

If you were to just say, "I dislike recue because I don't want another player to dictate my position for me."

That is fine. Really fine. It's a strong argument all on its own, and leaves little room for rebuttal because you're just stating an opinion. When you add - or worse - pretext that argument with a statement that invites an air of skepticism due to validity, then peeps like me come in and say BS, and contest your argument with anecdotal evidence of our own. IOW, it weakens your argument. I don't find your claim to be true in even the slightest, and that is only because I have not encountered it myself. Like ever. I have never witnessed a healer using Rescue maliciously unless friends were trolling each other in braindead content. In content that matters, not at all. Even among friends.

[Krotoan]

You're doing it again. Like quite literally the exact same thing I just mentioned. You are pretexting your true feelings [argument] about the skill with what is anecdotal evidence at best. What you truly dislike about Rescue is that another player can change your position against your will.

If you were to just say, "I dislike recue because I don't want another player to dictate my position for me."

That is fine. Really fine. It's a strong argument all on its own, and leaves little room for rebuttal because you're just stating an opinion. When you add - or worse - pretext that argument with a statement that invites an air of skepticism due to validity, then peeps like me come in and say BS, and contest your argument with anecdotal evidence of our own. IOW, it weakens your argument. I don't find your claim to be true in even the slightest, and that is only because I have not encountered it myself. Like ever. I have never witnessed a healer using Rescue maliciously unless friends were trolling each other in braindead content. In content that matters, not at all. Even among friends.

So you're going to tell me what I really mean now and how to express myself? ... the irony is absolutely staggering.


And we're going to add on "it never happens because I've never seen it". Terrific.

By that logic healers shouldn't heal at all, they are forcing heals onto the poor other players without consent! And what with the ranged dps buff, thanks i want to decide on my own how fast i go and how much damage i take!

When you ask a healer to join you.. what do you think you're asking for?

When you queue with a DPS.. what is their role description?


While you possibly could be posing an actual logical leap you made in your mind where you incorrectly correlated "I don't want other people to play for me or affect my inputted decisions" with "I don't want other people to affect the game I'm playing in any way at all" it SOUNDS like you're just spouting irrational gobbledygook to make a perfectly reasonable ask into a ridiculous one.