you know what really grinds my gears? savage gear

[Adeacia]

hmm yes BiS for 6-7 months for doing what content exactly? reclearing each week? oh boy slightly faster clears on fights they already have basically on autopilot. unsynced older content?

If the problem with getting BiS gear is that there isn't anything to use it on, then how about...not worrying about getting it? I don't do savage anymore, so I often don't bother upgrading my gear very much each time because I don't need to. I don't even have all the new tomestone gear for my main job yet and may not ever get it all.

[pikalovr]

am i in the twilight zone or something? the fact this is still being argued is nonsense. hell i'd be happy if we were given at min ilvl for next savage requirement but apparently that too is a detriment SOMEHOW and wanting to be rewarded for putting in effort is a sin now apparently. games apparently can't be rewarding and have a logical/good gear progression system for their endgame.

[Haadrak]

why should people who put in more time and effort be forced to have all that effort/time essentially wasted? how dare people who put in effort want to be rewarded for that effort, they must hate the game and treat it like a job. are you saying just cause content is fun the reward should be ana fter thought? time to take away ultimate weapons then since the experience is fun ig.

I am concerned that you would feel as though your efforts in raiding were entirely wasted if you weren't given gear rewards for doing so. I personally enjoy raiding with my static and enjoy some of the shenanigans that occur during raid time. Yes, getting gear is one part of it and is a good watermark for our achievments but it is not the be all and end all. Personally I know you're going to find this incredulous, but I don't actually care about ultimate weapons. Would I support their removal from the game? No. I'm happy other people enjoy them. I'm also happy other people enjoy crafting and crafted gear and for that to be valuable, it also has to offer some value...

[Packetdancer]

why should people who put in more time and effort be forced to have all that effort/time essentially wasted? how dare people who put in effort want to be rewarded for that effort, they must hate the game and treat it like a job.

I mean... I don't think time spent raiding savage is wasted? Ideally you raid savage because you enjoy raiding, and have fun in the raiding content. Yes, sometimes it can be frustrating, especially if you're trying to PF a clear of the tier (Pinax memes... so many Pinax memes...), but ideally you keep going because you do still enjoy the content for itself.

You say that people who don't mind the gear climb starting over each tier are demanding folks "treat the game like a job", but... to me, the folks going "Yeah, I don't care if I need to get new gear next tier, I raid because I like raiding" aren't the folks treating it like a job; they're raiding for fun, to enjoy raiding. I feel like demanding compensation ("I did this tier, therefore I deserve a lasting advantage beyond the tier!") is the approach that treats it like a job. In essence, demanding payment for raiding savage.

If you only raid because you want to have gear superiority, and no other reason, and so feel that the effort on the tier is "wasted" if that gear doesn't remain superior to everything else immediately available even after it being the best in the game for two patches, I'd ask you to think about whether you actually enjoy raiding itself.

And if not...? There's nothing wrong with that; there's plenty of other stuff to do.

[Valkyrie_Lenneth]

am i in the twilight zone or something? the fact this is still being argued is nonsense. hell i'd be happy if we were given at min ilvl for next savage requirement but apparently that too is a detriment SOMEHOW and wanting to be rewarded for putting in effort is a sin now apparently. games apparently can't be rewarding and have a logical/good gear progression system for their endgame.

Is not the reward completion of the tier?

I don't know many raiders who do it for the gear. Most do it for fun. I've raided since 2.0, and I've never felt like gear was the reason I was doing it. I enjoy the challenge, and completing it with friends.

[LittleImp]

so i propose the same question to you why is it so bad for those who already put the time and effort in to be equal to crafted let alone slightly higher power wise when you can still clear at min ilvl requirement

Worse tuning of raids, giving an advantage to people who are the last who ought to actually need it.

Parties refusing to recruit anyone that isn't last tier BiS.

Takes away a fun week 1 crafter/raider interaction that is basically a tradition and gives value to crafting.

perhaps but its an incredibly common point of view that getting into raiding is pointless precisely because of the gear progression being the way it is..

This is an excuse given by people who are not actually interested in difficult content, but wish to save face by acting like it is in some way beneath them or not worth their time. I have never met someone truly inclined towards savage raiding for whom this was a legitimate concern. It also definitely is not a common sentiment, and I say that as someone who constantly helps bring new players into difficult content.

[AziraSyuren]

You should be able to upgrade the savage gear from a prior tier to a current tomestone ilvl piece, honestly, preferably with something that drops from the first or second savage raid (that you don't have to roll on). It'd be the best of both worlds if you ask me. It wouldn't meaningfully impact progression any more than someone else in a group getting a lucky drop on a BIS piece, but it'd still give some kind of lasting use to gear from the prior tier.

[GeminiReed]

I have never met someone truly inclined towards savage raiding for whom this was a legitimate concern. It also definitely is not a common sentiment, and I say that as someone who constantly helps bring new players into difficult content.

Unfortunately it's a very common attitude in other MMO's and one typically espoused by the wannabe #hardcore crowd. The top tier teams understand that the true boss is the roster boss and gear is nothing but a tool. They want people to have the gear just to make their lives easier when they need a backfill.

[pikalovr]

so once again just cause people like one side of something the other side of it has to be perfectly fine as is right? if you enjoy raiding then why does it matter if the savage gear is slightly above the min requirement or at the min requirement? if you do happen to enjoy both but find a problem with the gear progression you should just overlook it clearly.

you'll still just going to clear the raids anyways. it has no detriment on you clearing the raids. if anything it's a plus cause you can go straight into raiding quicker. so if thats your arguing point it makes no sense. also for the love of god people stop acting like cause person A has a slight advantage over person B that it's gonna be tuned for person A. they will still make it clearable by the worse comp they can think of at minilvl requirement.

(i guarantee the point going to be brought up against this is "well you're gonna clear the raids too anyways so why does it bother you?" even tho i have said multiple times why in fact it's an issue and why people dfeel the way they do about gear progression/rewarding effort)

[Packetdancer]

You should be able to upgrade the savage gear from a prior tier to a current tomestone ilvl piece, honestly, preferably with something that drops from the first or second savage raid (that you don't have to roll on). It'd be the best of both worlds if you ask me. It wouldn't meaningfully impact progression any more than someone else in a group getting a lucky drop on a BIS piece, but it'd still give some kind of lasting use to gear from the prior tier.

See, this I could probably get behind. It's not something I'd personally do, most likely, at least not with some pieces; I have the Edengrace coat as my caster glam, the Edenchoir weapon as my WHM glamour (because it's one of the nicest-looking canes in the game), etc. I like certain bits too much to give them up as trade-in tokens.

The main problem I see is that by the time we get the next Pandaemonium tier, this one will be unlocked. Meaning someone could just farm the living heck out of Asphodelos and then go get an entire set of tomestone or savage gear super quickly (even on multiple jobs), thus entirely negating the 'entry' tier for that gear range. Why get, say, i610 crafted gear (which might be too pricy for your budget) as a new raider, or put up with the weekly token limit on i610 normal raid gear, when you can just go blitz the previous tier for a day or two with some experienced raider friends? If they've traded in their own previous-tier BiS for current-tier gear (and thus outgear the first tier enough to skip entire mechanics now), you can easily grab a full set of Asphodelos gear that way, turn it in for new stuff, and jump into the tier already partially geared up.