Dragonsong Ultimate Lore [Save Haurchefant version] Discussion

[Vyrerus]

As I recall, Bismarck had only been recently summoned for...hell if I know. My guess is because the Ascians wanted to do the whole "primals make this world weaker" think and just figured "we taught it to the non-feathered birds, let's teach it to the feathered birds."

I do recall that you find out that the key is in the Sea of Clouds, and decide it might be wise to go talk to the Vanu. Along the way to talk to the good ones, you get a cutscene where Bismarck eats a random island. When you get to the Vanu chieftain, he's like "Yeah, we'll give you the key, but you literally just missed him eating the island it was kept on."

It's the first Primal we see in Heavensward when we rescue Emmanellain from the Vundu or Gundu or whatever the bad fat yagudo are called. So it was around probably before we even set foot inside of Ishgard, at a minimum.

[Vyrerus]

I felt sad with Moen too but still mostly angry that they killed of one of the few interesting scions. (Thankfully they fleshed the rest out more with Shadowbringers)

Next to being husbando material Haurchefant was also one of the first people that threated us like a human being. In my view at least. He was nice from the start and it became even better after we saved his friend. There is even quest text where they told us that he had to be restrained by several men because he wanted to help us out with Shiva. It was so very refreshing, especially compared to the behavior of the scions.

And then in Heavensward he did even more for us and eventhough our other friends have no problems with sacrificing their lives for a greater cause he simply did it to save us.

All of that together (plus the "having the hots for the WoL") made him into a friend that our Wol deeply mourned for.

And SE the devils understood that a portion of the fanbase really liked him and now makes us suffer even more by including him in this Ultimate.

When I first met Haurchefant and he was warm and amicable to the WoL I knew he had scriptwriter's doom. It took a couple years, but I did slam my fist on my desk when it happened.

The real reason Haurchefant died though, was because the side cast for the WoL in Heavensward had to be discarded by the end of 3.0 to make room for the return of the Scions. This is why Ysayle had to sacrifice herself to the dreadnaught. This is why Estinien is possessed by Nidhogg.

Stormblood handled the side cast similarly. Albeit a little differently since there were more of them, but more or less... Lyse leaves the Scions at the end. Yugiri returns to Lord Hien's service full time. Gosetsu goes down with Doma Castle and is presumed dead.

Shadowbringers is the first time nothing happens to disbar the side cast, because it's the Scions, though I suppose you could count Emet-selch if you wanted.

(Also when I say side cast I guess I mean traveling companions.)

[KageTokage]

The theoretical alternate timeline doesn't really go into the specifics of anything that happens after Haurchefant is spared like why Nidhogg is present to lay siege to Ishgard despite Thordan still possessing one of his eyes or how Hraesvelgr ends up bound by an Allagan neurolink.

You are actually presented with the choice of choosing whether or not

to finish Thordan off at the end of the fifth phase, and the current assumption is that he needs to be spared so that he can help stop Nidhogg and Hraesvelgr at some point in their phase, but ultimately lay claim to their eyes and become the final threat of the fight.

[SentioftheHoukai]

Yeah, we weren't motivated by something as base and simple as revenge. We were motivated by something as base and simple as 'kill the obvious bad guys', and we were picking fights with Thordan and his knights for a whole dungeon before Haurchefant decided he could block Dragonslayer Ornstein's attack.

I thought one of the big tentpoles of why Haurchefant's death affected people was specifically because it was senseless and needless death. Making it out to be part of someone's grand scheme kills that as dead as the man himself.

(Although let's be real, we all know that the real reason we mourn him is because he's the first death who could've been shipped with the WoL; we lost Minfilia, Moenbryda and Wilred before him, but there weren't romantic undertones with the protagonist about them.)

Speak for yourself, my friend. Wilred was a good boi who deserved to live, dammit!

I'd romance him, hehe~

Hey I was heartbroken about Wilred more than any MSQ death bar Ysayle and still am to this day

Though as pointed out elsewhere, perhaps the divergence is as simple as Thordan not name-dropping Azys Lla as he leaves this time.

Denishia's got the right idea.

[RyuDragnier]

It was a personal hit on WoL, the first one at that.

Which is why Thordon got destroyed like he did. He did the only thing no primal has ever done in the game...he made it personal.

[Cleretic]

The theoretical alternate timeline doesn't really go into the specifics of anything that happens after Haurchefant is spared like why Nidhogg is present to lay siege to Ishgard despite Thordan still possessing one of his eyes or how Hraesvelgr ends up bound by an Allagan neurolink.

You are actually presented with the choice of choosing whether or not

to finish Thordan off at the end of the fifth phase, and the current assumption is that he needs to be spared so that he can help stop Nidhogg and Hraesvelgr at some point in their phase, but ultimately lay claim to their eyes and become the final threat of the fight.

Of course, the important thing to remember here is that in the reality of the game itself, DSR isn't an actual alternate timeline, it's the Wandering Minstrel weaving an elaborate 'what if'.

So when trying to make sense of the actual sequence of events, you need to ask the question of 'does the Wandering Minstrel actually care that much about worldbuilding?' Does he have an elaborate timeline of events planned out, or does he just think these fights would be cool?

[Duskane]

honestly it makes me pretty excited for the future
like DSR is insane with its what ifs and the fight is almost a choose your own adventure book

what ever we get for stormblood gonna be insane

[Kranel_San]

honestly it makes me pretty excited for the future
like DSR is insane with its what ifs and the fight is almost a choose your own adventure book

what ever we get for stormblood gonna be insane

What if? Papalymo fails to seal Shinryu, who goes on a rampage in Ala Mihgo against the garleans.
Either we fight Shinryu at that moment or we hurry to activate Omega, who becomes part of the encounter.
Both ways would lead to Zenos coming out personally to fight against these potential rivals, and maybe even capturing them to prepare for the final encounter in which its Zenos+Shinryu+Omega or something like this.

[Denishia]

My tinfoil hat theory is that to make up for the lack of the Warring Triad in an Ultimate fight, the three get added into a SB Ultimate - but not Kefka. Instead it's another What-if scenario where Regula successfully ships the Warring Triad back to the Garleans and Zenos uses them in combination with Shinryu. Thus adding more mechanics and phases to Shinryu who doesn't really have much more to add on his own aside from a Zenos doorboss-style duel and what the EX already had, without having to dip into Omega or try to very awkwardly shoe in Susano or Lakshmi or Tsukiyomi.

[KageTokage]

Of course, the important thing to remember here is that in the reality of the game itself, DSR isn't an actual alternate timeline, it's the Wandering Minstrel weaving an elaborate 'what if'.

So when trying to make sense of the actual sequence of events, you need to ask the question of 'does the Wandering Minstrel actually care that much about worldbuilding?' Does he have an elaborate timeline of events planned out, or does he just think these fights would be cool?

There is a vague sort of continuity to the shenanigans considering the second point of deviation I mentioned, so it would've been interesting if they had a little more dialogue between phases explaining those "what ifs".