In regards to something involving the main cast

[Theodric]

No they didn't. I know that because you're here.

Huh? What does me posting here in the present have to do with many other people, by their own admission, being driven away because they didn't want to be subjected to the same old tiresome insults and bizarre accusations because they like or dislike the 'wrong' characters in a video game of all things?

[KariTheFox]

Hey, I wasn't around the forums when the big Garlean Debate or whatever was happening, but what does "supporting the Garleans" even means in this context.

Do we mean recognizing that Garleans are ordinary people, and not inherently evil or unworthy of respect or dignity, and may or may not even agree with the actions of their government - because, duh, yes.

OR do we mean "thinking that the Garlean Imperial Project Is Good Actually And Thier Wars Of Expansion And Aggression Are Totally Justified," because that does kinda sound like genocide apologia.

[Alleo]

@Cleretic: Better just stop it, before it gets too much and you get reported. x_x You have some really well-thought-out posts and it would be sad to have you be banned because of this topic.

[EaraGrace]

Let me ask, what would have happened if they accepted? If they accepted suffering and accepted her etc. What would she do then? According to you the sundering is the only solution so what would she do in this scenario where they agreed with her? She’s still sunder them? Then what was the point of her supposedly addressing them?

So she doesn’t have to light her and her groups souls on fire to do so? So that she doesn’t have to wipe away memories of Zodiark and hide him away to keep people from summoning him back? So that they could be unified in their shared struggle and potentially face Meteion as Sundered beings earlier?

This is pretty disingenuous. Telling someone to basically stop posting because people are having a debate. Also..."terrible tactics?" If theyre so terrible why do you struggle to refute them so much then?

Hey, anyone else noticing that sea-lion over there?

Look there’s another one.

Huh? What does me posting here in the present have to do with many other people, by their own admission, being driven away because they didn't want to be subjected to the same old tiresome insults and bizarre accusations because they like or dislike the 'wrong' characters in a video game of all things?

Wow more, I should get the camera.

Also the fact that you two now have the same face is creepy as hell. Feel like you’re both gonna start saying red rum over and over.

[KizuyaKatogami]

So she doesn’t have to light her and her friends souls on fire to do so? So that she doesn’t have to wipe away memories of Zodiark and hide him away to keep people from summoning him back? So that they could be unified in their shared struggle and potentially face Meteion as Sundered beings earlier?



Hey, anyone else noticing the sea-lion here

She would have had to sunder them either way though no? Also i thought the memory erasure was a consequence of the sundering. Either way though, it’s again, a simple headcanon of events for her. Who knows if it really happened. I mean do we really think she told her people what would happen when it doesn’t seem like she even told her followers their souls would be consumed in the summoning of Hydaelyn? I surely wouldn’t trust someone like that.

As for the other comment, hilariously ironic, considering you complain about bad faith arguments, and condescension, yet you’re showing even right now that you fall under the same issues, constantly condescending and being rude and engaging in bad faith. . Something you’ve even acknowledged in the past. Hypocrisy at its finest.

Also the fact that you two now have the same face is creepy as hell. Feel like you’re both gonna start saying red rum over and over.

Someone come get their sundered moenbryda.

[Cleretic]

That supposed anti-Garlean/Ascian crusade was also before I was around, so I'm fairly sure this supposed crusade was back in Stormblood or before. And given Shadowbringers was both the moment when they actually started making the Ascians into characters and not cackling shadowy villains, and the point where they started turning the ship on the Garleans not just being a racist totalitarian empire (Endwalker was when they pulled that into port)... yeah, I probably would've raised a pretty big eyebrow on someone being pro-either.

And if that's wrong and we're blind to it, then surely the actual witnesses would be able to either provide evidence of exactly that, or at least recognize they're becoming the same bullies that used to be around.

[Theodric]

Hey, I wasn't around the forums when the big Garlean Debate or whatever was happening, but what does "supporting the Garleans" even means in this context.

Do we mean recognizing that Garleans are ordinary people, and not inherently evil or unworthy of respect or dignity, and may or may not even agree with the actions of their government - because, duh, yes.

OR do we mean "thinking that the Garlean Imperial Project Is Good Actually And Thier Wars Of Expansion And Aggression Are Totally Justified," because that does kinda sound like genocide apologia.

It's a fictional nation in a fictional setting. Who cares if someone likes and roots for Cersei Lannister in Game of Thrones instead of Ned Stark? It's not real.

Fandoms have long been plagued by creepy people who mistake liking or disliking a fictional character as indicative of some sort of character flaw. Which simply isn't true. The people who liked and played the Horde in World of Warcraft didn't become 'genocide apologists' by continuing to commit to the faction after certain events in that game's story.

The people who signed up to the Dark Brotherhood in Elder Scrolls Online didn't become complicit in murder because they actively assassinated NPC's as part of a quest.

It's little more than a transparent attempt to try and deflect from the simple fact that many people are perfectly capable of separating reality from fiction and are comfortable enough in their moral compass to be able to enjoy darker aesthetics and themes in a video game or movie.

None of this should really need to be explained, either - nor does it make much sense in the context of the discussion. If I were petty, I could point out the hypocrisy of the concern trolling over people maybe liking the Garleans or Ascians for any number of reasons. Especially when coming from individuals who, in the same breath declaring the Garleans and Ascians as 'genocidal' utterly refuse to paint Venat with the same brush.

Though in regards to Garlemald itself? I liked the nuance that existed when and where the story wasn't presenting them as one note villains. I've never made it any secret that my favourite Garlean characters are the likes of Regula and Jullus, both of which are very far removed from the likes of Valens and Zenos in terms of their actions and personalities.

I also like the blend of Roman and Russian aesthetics/inspiration. The former because I live in Europe and Roman influence is to be found almost everywhere here to this very day. The latter because it's a fascinating country with a rich history and I count some good friends of mine amongst the Russians.

Beyond that? The aesthetics of the cool robots and the armour used by the Legatus that is clearly inspired by Final Fantasy XII certainly helps. Especially when in itself that is my favourite game in the main series.

I'm happy to answer any other questions you may have, though.

[EaraGrace]

Didnt think i'd need to explain.

it was a hypothetical for the people who for some odd reason take her pity walk at face value and take it as the objective truth and telling of events.

also my goodness tone down the language. Kids play this game and message on these forums you know. Unprofessional...

Oh wow more sea lions.



It’s weird how they congregate, didn’t think they usually did so.

[sidurgu-12]

Oh wow more sea lions.



It’s weird how they congregate, didn’t think they usually did so.

oh so thats what that means. was a bit confused there.

[Theodric]

oh so thats what that means. was a bit confused there.

In reality, I think that this is a better explanation of what is happening here:

At the end of the day, it's just a video game. One many of us are varying degrees of passionate about, certainly, though I personally don't care for rivalries to form over something that is entirely fictional. As such, my stance has ever been to agree to disagree where common ground cannot be found. I don't care for endless arguments over morality and I'd like to think I've made it perfectly clear that if anyone has a problem with me, then they're very welcome to come and talk it out in a civil manner.

I like working out and discussing the 'how' and 'why' things happen in the way that they do in any given story or historical event, though my personal preferences drift towards characters and factions that have lofty stakes over those that have everything work out to their benefit most of the time.

One thing I noticed, however, was that some pretty spiteful and nasty accusations were aimed at anyone who ever dared to speak up in favour of the antagonists. This included death threats, homophobic comments and other unpleasant elements. Given that the offending posts were deleted, however, then such will have to be taken with a pinch of salt - though I'd like to think those who are being genuine and who have been around for a while will be aware of what I'm speaking of. Especially since some of the offending comments leaked into Reddit, Twitter and certain Discord servers.

The most fascinating thing I observed was that certain posters would repeatedly launch thinly veiled attacks and sometimes direct personal attacks at fans of the antagonists, implying all manner of horrible things about their person and real world morality. When finally those being assaulted had enough, even a minor quip in response would be treated as some deeply horrific crime and personal attack.

I will say that things have improved somewhat since then. Right around the same time that the game itself revealed that, yes, actually there was more to the Ascians and Garleans all along.

Ultimately any given individual is going to have their personal preferences and interests. I've never suggested that anyone has to like specific characters or factions. I only ask that the same courtesy is extended to others in turn.

In closing, I'd also note that the game attracts players from many different countries, cultures, backgrounds and belief systems. We all have different life experiences, so that is going to influence what we like and we don't like.

Many of us have repeatedly suggested that we simply agree to disagree when it comes to the morality of the game's story and characters. It's not even relevant to the lore discussions on many fronts, since it's entirely subjective and the writers themselves have acknowledged the nuance surrounding the situation, as seen here: