Handling Cheaters Gracefully vs Hardline ToS + Questionable legality of bans

[StealthPaladin]

Using Discord as an example of third-party tools is just as disingenuous ...

I mean, from the start when I brought up Discord I said almost as much myself. It is not likely to be banned but is bannable definitionally by the ToS. If you agree then that pretty much proves my point that the ToS needs clarity. It penalizes players who play by the book to have such vague qualities defined as bannable -- and in part that's why I say in-game consequences would alleviate many player concerns.

However while there is something ridiculous about it, it isn't right to call that disingenuous. There are very valid criticisms of Discord use. Some don't have access to or are not allowed to voice chat, it's not par of the game, it can easily make or break difficult content. Huge competitive advantage in Frontline and raiding -- plus it allows people to circumvent FC size limits, orchestrate disruptive behavior, harass gamers off-platform, modifies the execution of the game and a host of other problematic things it enables. We just think it is "normal" and therefor "ok" but that doesn't actually follow

Now that said; there has been talk that SE may change that stance because of cheating in CC. IF THEY DO, THEN.. it would probably have to apply to Discord too. To be fair it certainly would have to apply to ALL 3rd party tools and there have been notices suggesting that COULD happen.

At the end of the day, there's a massive problem with Square Enix's hands-off stance that they've held and the player base has largely self-moderated ...

Everything you said from there onward; totally agree. I am just asking people what they think it should be ideally. Not much can be done to help them other than attempting to compile a reasonable view of what players WANT and then identifying, of that, what is viable as a solution. Doesn't mean SE will do anything about it, but if they ever did, then at least they'd know what the player base felt about addons and have a little headstart on brainstorming.

Many people lately have voiced a concern that they don't feel they can speak on here or even like anything about addons due to risking their account. My primary hope in voicing this was not that they do everything like I want, though that would be a great outcome lol. My goal is to convey the opinion and invite the opinion of others.

We all know the realities and difficulties of an addon system -- but not having one apparently has many problems too, and those problems also cost money. I believe releasing an SDK will cost less money, but ultimately that's not majorly important. Just knowing what players would LIKE to see lets SE decide if anything of our wishes are feasible for themselves

[Johners]

However while there is something ridiculous about it, it isn't right to call that disingenuous. There are very valid criticisms of Discord use. Some don't have access to or are not allowed to voice chat, it's not par of the game, it can easily make or break difficult content. Huge competitive advantage in Frontline and raiding -- plus it allows people to circumvent FC size limits, orchestrate disruptive behavior, harass gamers off-platform, modifies the execution of the game and a host of other problematic things it enables. We just think it is "normal" and therefor "ok" but that doesn't actually follow

Now that said; there has been talk that SE may change that stance because of cheating in CC. IF THEY DO, THEN.. it would probably have to apply to Discord too. To be fair it certainly would have to apply to ALL 3rd party tools and there have been notices suggesting that COULD happen.

To be fair, Discord, Teamspeak & Co. have more impact on the gameplay than maaaaany other interface addons, even in WoW. You will always have a grey area on this.

Voice chat is a massive part of online game across MMOs and every other genre. While there are moderation issues with how some people choose to use these platforms, they're ultimately for the platform holders to deal with and not for Square Enix.

If Square Enix would crack down on using platforms like Discord in a third-party tools crackdown, when no other major MMO does, they can kiss so much of the player base goodbye. The high-end PvE and PvP community, that largely uses voice chat in any organised and consistent group/static, aren't just going to play without it. Not to mention they could just use Discord from another device like their phone and SE wouldn't even know.

Voice chat is not a grey area of the terms of service and it's absolutely the worst thing that Square Enix could choose to fight. I feel like some people are using the "Discord is a third party tool" argument as deflection because there's actual grey zone third-party tools like XIVAlex and NoClippy which can be used to cheat, in theory, even if most people only use it to make the game playable with higher ping/latency to the servers.

[Arzalis]

While there are moderation issues with how some people choose to use these platforms, they're ultimately for the platform holders to deal with and not for Square Enix.

While I would personally agree with what you're saying here, SE has made clear in their ToS (and clarification earlier in the week) they do think they can moderate things said and done on other platforms too. They're wading into territory they really shouldn't get involved in imo.

One of those things where I appreciate the intent, but I don't think they have any right to do this.

[StealthPaladin]

...Voice chat is not a grey area of the terms of service and it's absolutely the worst thing that Square Enix could choose to fight...

Ok... please show me the EXACT sections of the ToS you are refeering to that would make discord "a bannable 3rd party app" if you are refeering to the "prohibited action" lists of "behavior that affects game balance"...

Yes indeed, I'm referring to prohibited activities

"Square Enix strictly prohibits the use of third-party programs or tools as these disrupt the balance of the game. "
Discord does this

- Modifying, analyzing, integrating, and/or reverse-engineering game software or data.
Discord does this, Discord bots do this

- Creating, distributing, using, or promoting utilities that interact with the game.
Discord does this, Discord bots do this

That said, I mean, I'm not advocating for them to crack down on Discord. That would be crappy lol. I'm pointing out that the lack of clarity in the ToS is not a good thing because it jeopardizes reasonable use cases. Please keep in mind, the problematic scenario is triggered IF, AND ONLY IF, cheating forces them to crack down.

If they crack down, then you can be sure that people will complain about unequal enforcement on this addon and that, the end result will be NOTHING can be used. If we come to some kind of consensus with each other, that gives them an out where no one has to be the bad guy.

.. if interacting with the process itself is illegal then... litteraly any program ever would be banned as almost any programm interacts with the process list, and by extension FFXIV

weeeelll... not really the case. for instance a normal browser session does not generally interact with other processes. Word processors would not place overlays or poll FFXIV for data. Discord crosses that line in more ways than the big obvious one too.

Using it for team chat, most would never dream of fully utilizing the potential, but cheaters would if that's the last available platform for them to abuse. Not so hard to make a Discord plugin you see, some team software make it even easier

With Discord's overlay interacting with the framebuffer, you can absolutely make it backload displays of market data or change the rendering of textures

Any 3rd party program interacting with the game should be against the current ToS as written. I am all with you in the idea that this is sort of ridiculous and of course people need to be able to use Discord. It provides accessibility and a huge quality of life improvement right?

And so do many other tools from what I gather across the web. Soooo the ToS needs to be more clear, and IMO penalties should be in-game so that people have some flexibility to figure out where the line is without the ToS being 90 pages long.

[Johners]

Using it for team chat, most would never dream of fully utilizing the potential, but cheaters would if that's the last available platform for them to abuse. Not so hard to make a Discord plugin you see, some team software make it even easier

With Discord's overlay interacting with the framebuffer, you can absolutely make it backload displays of market data or change the rendering of textures

Any 3rd party program interacting with the game should be against the current ToS as written. I am all with you in the idea that this is sort of ridiculous and of course people need to be able to use Discord. It provides accessibility and a huge quality of life improvement right?

And so do many other tools from what I gather across the web. Soooo the ToS needs to be more clear, and IMO penalties should be in-game so that people have some flexibility to figure out where the line is without the ToS being 90 pages long.

You're putting way too much effort into trying to argue about Discord being a bad third-party tool. Fighting voice chat is never going to happen and people aren't going to use the Discord overlay as a mechanism to inject cheats into the game. More importantly, people can just use Discord on their phones or PlayStation voice chat (something that console players can use while playing any game without restrictions because Sony allow that and I'm 99% certain publishers can't block it).

I'm starting to get the impression you have an invested interest in the actual grey zone third party tools and rather than admitting it, you're trying to workaround it with really poor diversion. The vast majority of people that complain about a ToS or anti-cheat are people breaking the rules in the ways that are actually meaningful to the game, not voice chat.

[StealthPaladin]

You're putting way too much effort into trying to argue about Discord being a bad third-party tool. Fighting voice chat is never going to happen and people aren't going to use the Discord overlay as a mechanism to inject cheats into the game. More importantly, people can just use Discord on their phones or PlayStation voice chat (something that console players can use while playing any game without restrictions because Sony allow that and I'm 99% certain publishers can't block it).

Discord isn't a bad third-party tool. Exactly.

I'm starting to get the impression you have an invested interest in the actual grey zone third party tools and rather than admitting it, you're trying to workaround it with really poor diversion. The vast majority of people that complain about a ToS or anti-cheat are people breaking the rules in the ways that are actually meaningful to the game, not voice chat.

well anyone can think anything
see previous responses to such insinuations if you want one