Handling Cheaters Gracefully vs Hardline ToS + Questionable legality of bans

[StealthPaladin]

I've followed discussion on mods/addons/bots for a long time. As a dev, I keep hoping (no matter how often it's shot down) for an official SDK.

Many have that friend who has GShade going and many little tricks to make their experience more immersive. We hear people like that on Discord all the time

Others seem go further and might have features that edge on unfair -- tho really just more efficient at tasks that annoy. Arguably these tools are lifting burden off dev team. For example UI allowing better hotbars or inventory

Sorry but FFXIV inventory system has always been atrocious + the team doesn't look like they are keen to fix it. Can you really blame them? I don't

I've a huge list of things I'ld make if SDK ever does drop. Would currently LOVE to make some using the Universalis API; sadly am too scared of getting banned for tool making. That's grossly unfair no matter what reasoning you put behind it

Watching Zepla's take on recent cheating observed in Crystalline Conflict. Now concerned that dev team is already taking some very hard stances in the ToS. It's somewhat suffocating and frankly the community needs to shift our thinking a bit -- there has to be a line where terms switch from restrictive to permissive or the game will lose the winning streak we now enjoy

We've gone slightly too far restrictive, but make a big push like this -- it will have far worse impact on the players than anything you're trying to solve. Ideally we should hope to make the terms slightly more permissive while much simpler & justified to enforce


Having mods bannable in the ToS of a service like FFXIV is not actually legal, at least in the US. Of course, doesn't stop Steam and others, but it's rarely challenged in court -- and usually results in a settlement out of court when attempted. There is a huge difference for an MMO tho

It would be like buying a smart phone that only works with one service, then banning you from getting service based on things you did with your own property. Really you already have a sticky situation with free speech, but that takes it to the level of a monopoly. The SEC can get all up in their grill. Even the claim in the ToS that you receive no property rights toward your character has already been struck down multiple times in court for other games and holds no legal weight

I bring this up contentiously because if SE starts enforcing hard - people will fight for what they spent years working on. We don't want to see huge chunks of content budget, which we ALL contribute, going to legal fees and settlements. SE is precariously in a grey area already. It would simply be more reasonable and ethical to back off just a tiny smidge

Meanwhile, the community is dangerously close to pushing them in the opposite direction as a reflex to support team headaches. So dangerous long term

-- 1/2

[StealthPaladin]

One solution: impose month/season/year bans on PVP & High-end raids for mods that truly cheat. Let them access base content and account, they have no claim at that point. SE is simply preserving value for other customers and minimizing impact on offending customers. Great

Zepla's video brought up the idea of Discord being a tool, said that it was a stretch. Well, no not really. Who wins Frontline if everyone is vanilla but 8 players in Discord? That's why you can't join CC ranked in a group

Discord places overlays in-game. Discord bots help find scheduled parties and duties, simplify housing search and all sorts things. Heck even Radeon's browser overlay with fishing timers loaded -- as much a tool as other invasive 3rd party addons. May seem a stretch from a user perspective but in how it interacts with the game display process and offers a different experience than the game alone, it absolutely counts in current ToS

Since Discord interact also with process and data, it too qualifies as far as the ToS goes. And she's right to call that a stretch, because the ToS is in the wrong

It is already too restrictive

I rarely have any big gripes with the dev team or YoshiP.. outside of some of my dreams they crushed and many hours of work stolen unceremoniously when phasing out the 1.0 job system. Fact is they are now trying too hard to force the community to be nice

Sounds like a reasonable goal, but ends up making things worse. The community was nice with a little bit of edge BEFORE any rules were this strict. At some point the rules should swap and say, hey are you really hurt? is someone bleeding? OK then don't waste a GM's time we need the budget for content.

Content-only mods and snarky words in passing should not be actionable, it is more unethical to come down on a player you sold this product to, than whatever rude or lewd thing they produced at worst. At best an addon could be useful to the team. This should be the key takeaway. No matter how we personally feel, this is important to make this whole multiverse sustainable

Then it becomes easy to set the rule: When it comes to using mods that actually break competition, THOSE actions are making a lasting material difference in OTHER PLAYERS gameplay who ALSO PAID for the product and service.

If the effect is limited to less than 10 minutes of chat or something that happens purely on the accused's own screen -- it should not matter at all and SE really has no right to take a stance that it does. That's immoral to invade the player's agency and to disrespect all the money they've given you in this way.

Now if someone goes beyond that, it isn't too hard to police.

If someone is abusing /shout -- suspend them from /shout.
If someone is abusing Crystalline Conflict, suspend them from Crystalline Conflict.

That would take a little bit of engineering -- but it is the sort of task entry level developers can work on and the kind of resolutions that can be handled fairly with less investigation

[Broken_Wind]

Content-only mods and snarky words in passing should not be actionable, it is more unethical to come down on a player you sold this product to

Intentionally being a flat out butthole to someone should be an easy suspension. Of course, its easier said then done and sometimes people take things the wrong way.

I couldn't care less about add-ons that are cosmetic/UI related. People should be free to do this unless its, um, altering appearances of others characters without their consent.

[Larirawiel]

Content-only mods and snarky words in passing should not be actionable, it is more unethical to come down on a player you sold this product to, than whatever rude or lewd thing they produced at worst. At best an addon could be useful to the team.

OK, how do you distinguish between mods, which can be used as an advantage in PvP and harmless content only mods? In a generic way it is not possible. You have to work with mod specific black-/whitelisting to achieve this. And i doubt, that the devs will introduce those black-/whitelists and keep them up-to-date.


And yes, you can get advantages in PvP when you replace things like textures. You can make walls transparent (so-called wallhacks) or you can make invisible players visible again etc.



Cheers

[redheadturk]

OK, how do you distinguish between mods, which can be used as an advantage in PvP and harmless content only mods? In a generic way it is not possible. You have to work with mod specific black-/whitelisting to achieve this. And i doubt, that the devs will introduce those black-/whitelists and keep them up-to-date.


And yes, you can get advantages in PvP when you replace things like textures. You can make walls transparent (so-called wallhacks) or you can make invisible players visible again etc.



Cheers

I will forever fight against a hard crackdown on non cheating mods. I don't care if you can use texture mods to cheat. I care if the person using them is cheating with them. Ban the cheaters, do not make qol mods impossible to use.

[Larirawiel]

I will forever fight against a hard crackdown on non cheating mods. I don't care if you can use texture mods to cheat. I care if the person using them is cheating with them. Ban the cheaters, do not make qol mods impossible to use.

But you cannot distinguish between people, who use the mods for cheating and people, who do not. That is the problem. You can programmatically only distinguish between "modded client" and "client in original state" and not how the mod is used. And because this nature of it is so binary, there will only be a binary solution: ban all mods or ignore all mods. If you do not want, that this decision is made in a binary manner, then you have to use black-/whitelists. And again, it is unlikely, that SQEX will do that. It is much effort to keep them up-to-date. And if you start with black-/whitelisting mods then you would implicitly allow certain mods.

The best thing would be: design the game so, that the players do not have the desire to mod it. But this also needs some manpower to insert many new hairstyles, clothes ... and maybe nsfw content.


Cheers

[redheadturk]

But you cannot distinguish between people, who use the mods for cheating and people, who do not. That is the problem. You can programmatically only distinguish between "modded client" and "client in original state" and not how the mod is used. And because this nature of it is so binary, there will only be a binary solution: ban all mods or ignore all mods. If you do not want, that this decision is made in a binary manner, then you have to use black-/whitelists. And again, it is unlikely, that SQEX will do that. It is much effort to keep them up-to-date. And if you start with black-/whitelisting mods then you would implicitly allow certain mods.

The best thing would be: design the game so, that the players do not have the desire to mod it. But this also needs some manpower to insert many new hairstyles, clothes ... and maybe nsfw content.


Cheers

Or simply do not use automated enforcement, expand the enforcement team so they can have actual eyes on the problems to enforce the rules against the actual cheaters. Automated tools that not only eliminate the QOL mods and accessibility mods that disabled people use, but also eliminate mac and linux users, and would actually eliminate console users as well as consoles cannot run anticheat are not the answer. Extra enforcement staff to catch and punish cheaters is

[forsakee]

The best thing would be: design the game so, that the players do not have the desire to mod it. But this also needs some manpower to insert many new hairstyles, clothes ... and maybe nsfw content.

Cheers

No we don't need in-game NSFW mods, that sounds like a way too lose a lot of revenue! Would change the rating of the game and could possibly get the game banned by many cultures due to laws/religion etc.

[StealthPaladin]

...tools you are talking about always in "gray area" ...it might change ...This is a unreasonable liability for them.

With a policy on acceptable addons, then there is no gray area. If a change is unacceptable it isn't allowed

how do you distinguish between mods...In a generic way it is not possible... things like textures. You can make walls transparent (so-called wallhacks)

You're exactly right. ToS can't perfectly distinguish. The line I've laid out focuses on actions that alter the value of other users' product or service because that is the most defensible position.

I have brought SDKs. Without goin super technical, an SDK must roughly exist already in the client for it to communicate. Working with Dalamud devs or starting an open project, addons would HAVE to use the Official SDK. Long story short, it gives devs the ability to very easily control addons at a feature level. For example, all plugins could be disabled in PVP. If any exposed functionality is abused it could be disabled very easily, by a toggle and all plugins using it would cease to work

There is a problem, despite what many assert, on the business side. If recent drama over addons forces them to come down harder on all addons suddenly you have a much faster growing pool of potential class action litigants.

Imagine 100,00 accounts suddenly having their already long spent game, expansions and sub fees reversed -- that's the ceiling for damages that will be negotiated against. They don't need to have a rock solid argument that wins, they only need good enough to not be thrown out. Then you're likely settling out of court - we're looking at likely 10s of millions of dollars

There are reasons they don't just go ban silly on everyone now.

There's no perfect anti-cheat solution. There's no winning an arms race in any cyber security; best you can do is make the playing field on your terms. By changing bans to be content-specific, the user retains their ACCESS so the devs and good players don't have to suffer the effects of the legal world invading FFXIV

Considering all that, the points I've outlined take away any argument by cheaters. Any plugin that does NOT use the official SDK must, by definition, be reverse engineering the game to maliciously devalue the subscription of users following the ToS. That puts SE in a position to sue those who make unofficial plugins or reverse any action against them.

[redheadturk]

Yes, thank you! All of this. The thing I fear most is them coming down more heavy handed and getting banned for using the tools that make playing this game possible and feasible for me. I have put upwards of $2000+ into this game between expansions, sub fees, and mogstation purchases. I do not deserve to be treated like some horrible cheating witch for using accessibility tools and texture mods.