Handling Cheaters Gracefully vs Hardline ToS + Questionable legality of bans

[StealthPaladin]

I hope that third party programs are never allowed in FF14. Just see WoW, many players there can't even play anymore without third party programs. And in FF14 some players tell that the game play is to easy without realizing that they have a dozen third party cheat programs running already.

So I keep asking folks this, but I'm genuinely curious.

Do you think that should include tools such as Discord? (which runs in parallel offering voice chat and information)
Do you think that should include tools such as Gshade? (which just enhances graphics)
Do you think that should include tools such as something that gives sorting options to inventory?

Are you really saying that ALL such tools are bad and no line can be drawn? Or could it be that you don't count some of the above as offending tools? Whatever you think no shade toward you for it, I just am trying to understand

I think the line should be content ok, competitive edge bad -- and I brought up free speech, perhaps foolishly, thinking well tools like Discord do give a competitive edge but its hard to describe why it is different than other tools in ToS terms. So I thought, well if the boundary has that leeway it kind of says, OK communication is defensible as long as you aren't circumventing anything (like someone blocking you in game / harassments)

To me it seems a bit harsh to say NO tools but it would be fair at least. And that is pretty clear. I feel like a lot of people would be sad tho, if enforcement kicked up and it is still at the NO tools level, and of course I would never get to make my dream plugins.

[kaynide]

So I keep asking folks this, but I'm genuinely curious.

Do you think that should include tools such as Discord? (which runs in parallel offering voice chat and information)
Do you think that should include tools such as Gshade? (which just enhances graphics)
Do you think that should include tools such as something that gives sorting options to inventory?

Are you really saying that ALL such tools are bad and no line can be drawn? Or could it be that you don't count some of the above as offending tools? Whatever you think no shade toward you for it, I just am trying to understand

I think the line should be content ok, competitive edge bad -- and I brought up free speech, perhaps foolishly, thinking well tools like Discord do give a competitive edge but its hard to describe why it is different than other tools in ToS terms. So I thought, well if the boundary has that leeway it kind of says, OK communication is defensible as long as you aren't circumventing anything (like someone blocking you in game / harassments)

To me it seems a bit harsh to say NO tools but it would be fair at least. And that is pretty clear. I feel like a lot of people would be sad tho, if enforcement kicked up and it is still at the NO tools level, and of course I would never get to make my dream plugins.

The thing here is, you're lumping together things that are not the same.

Discord specifically is no different than having your pals on Skype, or Line or any other communications tool. It can be run completely independent of the game and does not interface with the software. It's like saying having physical printouts of the game map with treasure chest locations marked is bannable. Or that playing with two screens on your computer is bannable. It's nonsense.

The line is already there: They do not want you using (tools, apps, whatever) that directly interface with the game, or alter the game files. The most grey-zone thing out there would be texture swapping, model editing or perhaps the bard auto-music player. These WOULD be bannable if caught, but since it doesn't cause any actual mechanical cheating advantage to "win", the Devs don't care. Like I said earlier, speed limit or seat belt laws. It's not about whether it gives a competitive edge.

If you want to make an app that enhances inventory management, or one that auto-rolls loot, or one that auto-throws away "junk", I can't imagine it would be a problem until it's automating your actions or allowing you to do something you shouldn't be able to do (like giving items to GC for seals, or automatically doing Leves, or highlight players hidden behind walls etc).

[StealthPaladin]

The thing here is, you're lumping together things that are not the same.

Discord specifically is no different than having your pals on Skype, or Line or any other communications tool. It can be run completely independent of the game and does not interface with the software. It's like saying having physical printouts of the game map with treasure chest locations marked is bannable. Or that playing with two screens on your computer is bannable. It's nonsense.

The line is already there: They do not want you using (tools, apps, whatever) that directly interface with the game, or alter the game files. The most grey-zone thing out there would be texture swapping, model editing or perhaps the bard auto-music player. These WOULD be bannable if caught, but since it doesn't cause any actual mechanical cheating advantage to "win", the Devs don't care. Like I said earlier, speed limit or seat belt laws. It's not about whether it gives a competitive edge.

Thanks for clarifying that. Was not trying to lump these things together, they are specifically different. Simply to see where you personally set the line. Really what you're saying seems perfectly reasonable to me.

Only thing I'd counter is Discord DOES break the current ToS as a 3rd party tool, though true I don't believe that is the intent of the rule at all. However Discord does interface with the game process to provide overlays and show status especially. Currently that is bannable, but they look the other way as you point out for many types of mods.

Assuming they did not increase enforcement in the near future, leaving things alone would be workable. Though not my ideal, for many that might be good enough. If they actually take the full no-3rd party tools stance due to the recent cheating, well then they may have to be "fair" and just throw out all 3rd party tool use

I don't think it has any real risk of being slammed by them, but then IMO the ToS should be softened to reflect the reality. The idea of switching to in game penalties is another way of giving clarity to the line without actually saying it out loud

If you want to make an app that enhances inventory management, or one that auto-rolls loot, or one that auto-throws away "junk", I can't imagine it would be a problem until it's automating your actions or allowing you to do something you shouldn't be able to do (like giving items to GC for seals, or automatically doing Leves, or highlight players hidden behind walls etc).

This is a good place to draw the line imo. Automation is at least one very clear category.

[Johners]

Only thing I'd counter is Discord DOES break the current ToS as a 3rd party tool, though true I don't believe that is the intent of the rule at all. However Discord does interface with the game process to provide overlays and show status especially. Currently that is bannable, but they look the other way as you point out for many types of mods.

Using Discord as an example of third-party tools is just as disingenuous as that time Yoshi-P used Excel or a Calculator as an example of a third-party tool. These are completely egregious examples and don't reflect the reality of the situation.

At the end of the day, there's a massive problem with Square Enix's hands-off stance that they've held and the player base has largely self-moderated so the developers stay off of their backs. There's easily more than double the amount of players there were even a year ago and this laid back approach just isn't scalable anymore.

MMOs and other online games in general have to combat the fact some players will do anything to gain a competitive advantage while ignoring the consequences for the rest of the player base. Even some of the QoL UI plugins are a tad questionable in this regard, especially those for market board functions.

Unfortunately Square Enix, specifically Yoshi-P as the face of FFXIV, has a problem with wanting to tackle big decisions that confront the player base. The consequences of this problem will only get worse the longer they allow players to freely go at it with third-party tools.

You can ask for an official modding/plugin framework but if you look at what other MMOs and online games allow, at the very best we'll get a UI framework like World of Warcraft. You're not going to get an official version of XIVAlex or NoClippy. You're not going to get an official version of appearance modifications because they don't like lewd mods and they also sell cosmetics on the optional item store. At the very best we'd get some of the QoL UI plugins alongside ACT and Cactbot.

[StealthPaladin]

Using Discord as an example of third-party tools is just as disingenuous ...

I mean, from the start when I brought up Discord I said almost as much myself. It is not likely to be banned but is bannable definitionally by the ToS. If you agree then that pretty much proves my point that the ToS needs clarity. It penalizes players who play by the book to have such vague qualities defined as bannable -- and in part that's why I say in-game consequences would alleviate many player concerns.

However while there is something ridiculous about it, it isn't right to call that disingenuous. There are very valid criticisms of Discord use. Some don't have access to or are not allowed to voice chat, it's not par of the game, it can easily make or break difficult content. Huge competitive advantage in Frontline and raiding -- plus it allows people to circumvent FC size limits, orchestrate disruptive behavior, harass gamers off-platform, modifies the execution of the game and a host of other problematic things it enables. We just think it is "normal" and therefor "ok" but that doesn't actually follow

Now that said; there has been talk that SE may change that stance because of cheating in CC. IF THEY DO, THEN.. it would probably have to apply to Discord too. To be fair it certainly would have to apply to ALL 3rd party tools and there have been notices suggesting that COULD happen.

At the end of the day, there's a massive problem with Square Enix's hands-off stance that they've held and the player base has largely self-moderated ...

Everything you said from there onward; totally agree. I am just asking people what they think it should be ideally. Not much can be done to help them other than attempting to compile a reasonable view of what players WANT and then identifying, of that, what is viable as a solution. Doesn't mean SE will do anything about it, but if they ever did, then at least they'd know what the player base felt about addons and have a little headstart on brainstorming.

Many people lately have voiced a concern that they don't feel they can speak on here or even like anything about addons due to risking their account. My primary hope in voicing this was not that they do everything like I want, though that would be a great outcome lol. My goal is to convey the opinion and invite the opinion of others.

We all know the realities and difficulties of an addon system -- but not having one apparently has many problems too, and those problems also cost money. I believe releasing an SDK will cost less money, but ultimately that's not majorly important. Just knowing what players would LIKE to see lets SE decide if anything of our wishes are feasible for themselves

[Johners]

However while there is something ridiculous about it, it isn't right to call that disingenuous. There are very valid criticisms of Discord use. Some don't have access to or are not allowed to voice chat, it's not par of the game, it can easily make or break difficult content. Huge competitive advantage in Frontline and raiding -- plus it allows people to circumvent FC size limits, orchestrate disruptive behavior, harass gamers off-platform, modifies the execution of the game and a host of other problematic things it enables. We just think it is "normal" and therefor "ok" but that doesn't actually follow

Now that said; there has been talk that SE may change that stance because of cheating in CC. IF THEY DO, THEN.. it would probably have to apply to Discord too. To be fair it certainly would have to apply to ALL 3rd party tools and there have been notices suggesting that COULD happen.

To be fair, Discord, Teamspeak & Co. have more impact on the gameplay than maaaaany other interface addons, even in WoW. You will always have a grey area on this.

Voice chat is a massive part of online game across MMOs and every other genre. While there are moderation issues with how some people choose to use these platforms, they're ultimately for the platform holders to deal with and not for Square Enix.

If Square Enix would crack down on using platforms like Discord in a third-party tools crackdown, when no other major MMO does, they can kiss so much of the player base goodbye. The high-end PvE and PvP community, that largely uses voice chat in any organised and consistent group/static, aren't just going to play without it. Not to mention they could just use Discord from another device like their phone and SE wouldn't even know.

Voice chat is not a grey area of the terms of service and it's absolutely the worst thing that Square Enix could choose to fight. I feel like some people are using the "Discord is a third party tool" argument as deflection because there's actual grey zone third-party tools like XIVAlex and NoClippy which can be used to cheat, in theory, even if most people only use it to make the game playable with higher ping/latency to the servers.

[Arzalis]

While there are moderation issues with how some people choose to use these platforms, they're ultimately for the platform holders to deal with and not for Square Enix.

While I would personally agree with what you're saying here, SE has made clear in their ToS (and clarification earlier in the week) they do think they can moderate things said and done on other platforms too. They're wading into territory they really shouldn't get involved in imo.

One of those things where I appreciate the intent, but I don't think they have any right to do this.

[StealthPaladin]

...Voice chat is not a grey area of the terms of service and it's absolutely the worst thing that Square Enix could choose to fight...

Ok... please show me the EXACT sections of the ToS you are refeering to that would make discord "a bannable 3rd party app" if you are refeering to the "prohibited action" lists of "behavior that affects game balance"...

Yes indeed, I'm referring to prohibited activities

"Square Enix strictly prohibits the use of third-party programs or tools as these disrupt the balance of the game. "
Discord does this

- Modifying, analyzing, integrating, and/or reverse-engineering game software or data.
Discord does this, Discord bots do this

- Creating, distributing, using, or promoting utilities that interact with the game.
Discord does this, Discord bots do this

That said, I mean, I'm not advocating for them to crack down on Discord. That would be crappy lol. I'm pointing out that the lack of clarity in the ToS is not a good thing because it jeopardizes reasonable use cases. Please keep in mind, the problematic scenario is triggered IF, AND ONLY IF, cheating forces them to crack down.

If they crack down, then you can be sure that people will complain about unequal enforcement on this addon and that, the end result will be NOTHING can be used. If we come to some kind of consensus with each other, that gives them an out where no one has to be the bad guy.

.. if interacting with the process itself is illegal then... litteraly any program ever would be banned as almost any programm interacts with the process list, and by extension FFXIV

weeeelll... not really the case. for instance a normal browser session does not generally interact with other processes. Word processors would not place overlays or poll FFXIV for data. Discord crosses that line in more ways than the big obvious one too.

Using it for team chat, most would never dream of fully utilizing the potential, but cheaters would if that's the last available platform for them to abuse. Not so hard to make a Discord plugin you see, some team software make it even easier

With Discord's overlay interacting with the framebuffer, you can absolutely make it backload displays of market data or change the rendering of textures

Any 3rd party program interacting with the game should be against the current ToS as written. I am all with you in the idea that this is sort of ridiculous and of course people need to be able to use Discord. It provides accessibility and a huge quality of life improvement right?

And so do many other tools from what I gather across the web. Soooo the ToS needs to be more clear, and IMO penalties should be in-game so that people have some flexibility to figure out where the line is without the ToS being 90 pages long.

[Larirawiel]

Using Discord as an example of third-party tools is just as disingenuous as that time Yoshi-P used Excel or a Calculator as an example of a third-party tool. These are completely egregious examples and don't reflect the reality of the situation.

To be fair, Discord, Teamspeak & Co. have more impact on the gameplay than maaaaany other interface addons, even in WoW. You will always have a grey area on this.



Cheers

[ZeraSkiratea]

Only thing I'd counter is Discord DOES break the current ToS as a 3rd party tool, though true I don't believe that is the intent of the rule at all. However Discord does interface with the game process to provide overlays and show status especially. Currently that is bannable, but they look the other way as you point out for many types of mods.

Ok... please show me the EXACT sections of the ToS you are refeering to that would make discord "a bannable 3rd party app" if you are refeering to the "prohibited action" lists of "behavior that affects game balance"

"- Modifying, analyzing, integrating, and/or reverse-engineering game software or data.
- Creating, distributing, using, or promoting utilities that interact with the game."



You are grossely misinterpreting what "interacting with the game" means
interacting with the process to get its name and runtime(aka discord status) isnt "interacting with the game" its "interacting with the process" if interacting with the process itself is illegal then... litteraly any program ever would be banned as almost any programm interacts with the process list, and by extension FFXIV


The overlay is similar, it dosnt interact with the game, at MOST it interacts with the process directly(and at that point we need to REALLY talk definition of "interacting"), it interacts with OS level features and hooks into the DirectX/OpenGL calls




"the game" is not identical to "the process"


~~what is interesting tho, i saw a lot of people(not here) argue that ACT is "technicaly fine as long as its not used to insult people as it just reads the network logs and not anything in the game itself" however, by the definition of "prohibited actions" ACT 100% analyizes Game data(however it technically dosnt interact with the game or process itself)~~