On Venat's Role in the Story

[EaraGrace]

If that's the standard, I guess the sundered need another round of sundering then

Let's see, the Ironworks of 8UC who risked the whole word to dissappear. The Eorzean, Ala Mhigans and Domans who's willing to kill conscripted soldier to take back their lost freedom instead of "moving on". People in general who went ahead with their revenge for their loss (e.g estinien killing nidhogg, etc.).

We're doing our greatest hits again.

Look if we are gonna equivocate fighting against an imperialist culture hellbent on conquering and "civilizing" the natives to...

*checks notes*

...human sacrifice...

then I don't think we should do this conversation again because I don't think it'll be productive to either party.

And many others. In fact, the sundered are more prone to violence than the unsundered.

That's certainly a way of interpreting the story. We breakin out the craniometers next?

As I've said before, we use our standard as mortal to unfairly judge the Ancients. We say "those lives have been lost, move on", because in real world, there's zero chance people coming back to life. That's not the case with the Ancients, probably. They have the means to bring back those they have lost, it's not a zero chance. You're telling me that we won't do the same should it's also the case for us or the sundered?

Nope. Never.

I can honestly say that if you came to me and said "I can bring back your dead loved ones but you have to trade a stranger's soul to do so" I'd tell you to hit the road. I'd fully believe you could, but nah. I love my family, but I'm not depriving another of life for that.

And actually let me ask you a hypothetical. If someone you loved needed an organ transplant, but you couldn't find a willing donor, would you think it right to go out and kill a stranger to save them? What if it was five people you loved?

Ah yes, venat is so deeply empathized that she chose to not tell anyone about the final days, and prefer being vague as hell even when confronting the Ancients regarding their ""mistake"".

Yep, she did deeply empathize. That's just a fact.

[KageTokage]

The lack of perspective regarding the nature of the lives that were meant to be sacrificed makes it difficult for it to seem like such an awful thing barring the opinion of Hermes who, to my recollection Venat never openly confessed to sympathizing with; rather expressing her love for her fellow man specifically. However, even if those lives were strictly non-sentient beasts, the Sundering nonetheless created a far worse reality for them as well, as the lack of creation magicks inherently makes man much more dependent on natural resources along with them being killed simply for amusement.

The Ancients habitually created life, then effectively euthanized it if it was flawed or otherwise did not live up their standards, so it was only natural they would not consider sacrificing "lesser" lives to bring back their fellows much of a concern, and once that act was done, there was no indication they intended to sacrifice more lives, either. It just makes the existence of the anti-Zodiark faction seem strange to me now, moreso with the Watcher openly confessing that not even he or the others had any idea what Venat's true intentions were nor did they know the true cause of Final Days. I question what exactly she did tell them that actually won them over with the only stated motive for their opposition being that Zodiark was a "temporary" solution to the Final Days despite there being nothing to actually indicate that was the case.

[Kozh]

Look if we are gonna equivocate fighting against an imperialist culture hellbent on conquering and "civilizing" the natives to...

*checks notes*

...human sacrifice...

then I don't think we should do this conversation again because I don't think it'll be productive to either party.

Yeah sure, feel free to ignore the other two. As if human sacrifice is an alien concept to the sundered anyway. Oh and also let's not forget how hydaelyn is prepared to let the other shards to die in case meteion isn't stopped.

I mean, I can always bring the "3rd sacrifice doesn't involve human souls", but you'll just deflect it with "oh, we're back to sacrifice chicken?" again despite having zero prove U_U

That's certainly a way of interpreting the story. We breakin out the craniometers next?

Hey, I'm just using fact *shrug*. Let's see.. Ul'dah treatment to belahdia, racism in Gridania, piracy in limsa back in the old days, mankind betraying ratatoskr, Allagan being cruel to even their fellow citizens, yotsuyu being sold as sex slave, the garleans being driven out from corvos and being bullied because they don't have magic. Do I need to continue?

Meanwhile, the Ancients only "sin" is apparently some of them are being indifferent to the creatures dying in a testing facility.

I can honestly say that if you came to me and said "I can bring back your dead loved ones but you have to trade a stranger's soul to do so" I'd tell you to hit the road. I'd fully believe you could, but nah. I love my family, but I'm not depriving another of life for that.

Good for you I guess? Congrats for having such a high moral standard(?). Meanwhile I can say that I'll most likely do it. And I know for sure I won't be the only one who think like that.

And actually let me ask you a hypothetical. If someone you loved needed an organ transplant, but you couldn't find a willing donor, would you think it right to go out and kill a stranger to save them? What if it was five people you loved?

Okay, I genuinely doesn't get the five people thing. Does that mean it's five people who need organ transplant, or are they going to be the donor?

But to answer your question, no I don't have the guts to kill someone directly, but I'll definitely check the black market, which is already questionable af.

Yep, she did deeply empathize. That's just a fact.

Ah yeah, my bad, I forgot she's either on delusion or just being too dense to understand how cruel her action is.

[EaraGrace]

The lack of perspective regarding the nature of the lives that were meant to be sacrificed makes it difficult for it to seem like such an awful thing barring the opinion of Hermes who, to my recollection Venat never openly confessed to sympathizing with; rather expressing her love for her fellow man specifically. However, even if those lives were strictly non-sentient beasts, the Sundering nonetheless created a far worse reality for them as well, as the lack of creation magicks inherently makes man much more dependent on natural resources along with them being killed simply for amusement.

The issue is those creation magicks came from factors that made practical Dynamis manipulation nearly impossible. Aetheric density doesn’t allow for one to fight back against Meteion. The Sundering gave them that ability, and all the while leaving those impacted with a chance to live some form of meaningful life.

The Ancients habitually created life, then effectively euthanized it if it was flawed or otherwise did not live up their standards, so it was only natural they would not consider sacrificing "lesser" lives to bring back their fellows much of a concern, and once that act was done, there was no indication they intended to sacrifice more lives, either.

The fact they couldn’t recognize the issue with sacrificing those considered lesser is the exact problem. Those “lesser” lives were not actually deserving of less moral consideration, and in truth we’re more capable to resist the coming calamity due to the very things that made them “lesser.” Whether they intended to sacrifice more isn’t the issue, it’s the fact that the third sacrifice was purely selfish in motivation and indicative of how they perceived problems in society.

It just makes the existence of the anti-Zodiark faction seem strange to me now, moreso with the Watcher openly confessing that not even he or the others had any idea what Venat's true intentions were nor did they know the true cause of Final Days. I question what exactly she did tell them that actually won them over with the only stated motive for their opposition being that Zodiark was a "temporary" solution to the Final Days despite there being nothing to actually indicate that was the case.

There’s no indication the Watcher was one of those in Venats inner circle, nor that he had knowledge of what was to occur.

Yeah sure, feel free to ignore the other two. As if human sacrifice is an alien concept to the sundered anyway. Oh and also let's not forget how hydaelyn is prepared to let the other shards to die in case meteion isn't stopped.

Okay.

Ironworks: None would live to see the world they saved, nor benefit from any of their sacrifices. They faced the end and simply south a means to spare others.

Estinien: His killing backfired and resulted in him becoming the monster he feared. After the journey he took with us and Ysayle, and given time to process things, he comes to fight out of love for others rather than revenge. This is literally stated at the Mothercrystal.

The Shards: What exactly do you want her to do? Abandon the lives of those on the Source? How are you going to get them to the Loporrits?

I mean, I can always bring the "3rd sacrifice doesn't involve human souls", but you'll just deflect it with "oh, we're back to sacrifice chicken?" again despite having zero prove U_U

And where exactly is your proof? I’ve never once seen you offer a single textual source for your assertions.

What do you think Hythlo meant by this Kozh? Do you not think that it’d be pretty out there for him to be talking about animals here?

Hey, I'm just using fact *shrug*. Let's see.. Ul'dah treatment to belahdia, racism in Gridania, piracy in limsa back in the old days, mankind betraying ratatoskr, Allagan being cruel to even their fellow citizens, yotsuyu being sold as sex slave, the garleans being driven out from corvos and being bullied because they don't have magic. Do I need to continue?

Yep you do, because none of those things demonstrate the Sundered are inherently more violent than the Ancients. Take those same people and give them creation magicks and mastery over the world and see what happens.

Good for you I guess? Congrats for having such a high moral standard(?). Meanwhile I can say that I'll most likely do it. And I know for sure I won't be the only one who think like that.

That’s fine. Still morally wrong though and I would hope any virtuous person would act to stop you.

Okay, I genuinely doesn't get the five people thing. Does that mean it's five people who need organ transplant, or are they going to be the donor?

The average human has enough transplantable organs to save five others. So the question is, would you kill one to get the organs to save five?

But to answer your question, no I don't have the guts to kill someone directly, but I'll definitely check the black market, which is already questionable af.

Then why aren’t you doing so. Five lives are at stake, you better hurry.

Ah yeah, my bad, I forgot she's either on delusion or just being too dense to understand how cruel her action is.

She did the right thing.

[Tehmon]

You can't just point at Garlean as proof of the immorality of the sundered and not mention how ascians had a pretty huge hand in molding that nation. Same with Allag, both pawns in ascian schemes.

We have no way of knowing what kind of world the sundered would've built without ascians plotting and planning behind the scenes to rejoin the shards.

[KizuyaKatogami]

You can't just point at Garlean as proof of the immorality of the sundered and not mention how ascians had a pretty huge hand in molding that nation. Same with Allag, both pawns in ascian schemes.

We have no way of knowing what kind of world the sundered would've built without ascians plotting and planning behind the scenes to rejoin the shards.

I don’t remember entirely so my memory might need to be refreshed, but i don’t recall ascians having involvement in the nations that invaded the original garlean territories and pushed them into uninhabitable territory.

[Rulakir]

I don’t remember entirely so my memory might need to be refreshed, but i don’t recall ascians having involvement in the nations that invaded the original garlean territories and pushed them into uninhabitable territory.

Nor do I recall them being involved in the origins of the Dragonsong War.

[Skyborne]

You can't just point at Garlean as proof of the immorality of the sundered and not mention how ascians had a pretty huge hand in molding that nation. Same with Allag, both pawns in ascian schemes.

We have no way of knowing what kind of world the sundered would've built without ascians plotting and planning behind the scenes to rejoin the shards.

Agreed that the calamities were pretty bad and set back the Sundered quite a bit, erasing much history (I am still interested in Allag since 2.0, even after all this...)... I've wondered the same thing since ShB. No clue how much involvement Emet had in it since he didn't say, and if I recall, Amon was only recruited after Allag's fall.

I think the Sundered can share some of the blame for falling to their dark desires -- their flaws, vices, and wickedness are alluded to by those such as Amon, Nanamo's voice in UT, and so on, but still, hope would endure in spite of that. I am just not a fan of any implication that the sundered are simply poor, innocent children who can do no wrong as it undermines that message (as much as I have distaste to how it was all executed)... I mean, even Tiamat, an unsundered dragon, was swayed into the temptation of bringing back her loved one by the Ascians.

Elidibus handed Ilberd the Niddy eye, the means to accomplish something. Ilberd, a big boy who can think for himself and a moral agent, chose to martyr himself (and everyone with him!) so he could free Ala Mhigo at any cost.

[KageTokage]

The issue is those creation magicks came from factors that made practical Dynamis manipulation nearly impossible. Aetheric density doesn’t allow for one to fight back against Meteion. The Sundering gave them that ability, and all the while leaving those impacted with a chance to live some form of meaningful life. .

The fact that we're left to assume they couldn't have reasonably come up with a solution to that dilemma if they had actually known about it is one of the other things that bugs me.

Which is why I would've preferred that they had simply made Venat get her memories wiped also (And made whatever other requisite changes in writing that stemmed from that) so that it never felt like a possibility in the first place and there was literally no hope/chance for things to play out differently (Even if the causal loop had already dictated such).

[thegreatonemal]

You can't just point at Garlean as proof of the immorality of the sundered and not mention how ascians had a pretty huge hand in molding that nation. Same with Allag, both pawns in ascian schemes.

We have no way of knowing what kind of world the sundered would've built without ascians plotting and planning behind the scenes to rejoin the shards.

Yes you can, considering Emet's style of acisan is to merely give people the tools for chaos and sit back and let them hang themselves. He simply gave them the weapons to act on their racism and slights from eight centuries ago. A flowery speech here and there about pride and they were off to the racist races. I doubt he had much hand in Allag, considering Xande was the ruler and he barely knew anything about omega. Again he is pretty hands off when it comes to spreading chaos.