On Venat's Role in the Story

[Dikatis]

He only came to be recognized as a result of helping Azem with their problems. The guilt-tripping is blatant in the cutscene itself, with Hythlodaeus, Meteion, Hermes, and WoL all asking Emet to PLEASE help. The reason why Emet is so surprised that so many people vouched for him getting the position is a combination of his humility and how he wouldn't have helped if Azem hadn't roped him into it.

[EaraGrace]

When i say they fought through it i mean mainly the final days part, and them stopping it with Zodiark, a feat that even the wandering minstrel says himself required bravery and sacrifice and what have you. I’m not saying the ancient world was only marginally better.

Then we are in agreement then. I would however point out that the souls in Zodiark were not expended and would live on, at the cost of Zodiarks power. Maybe so many wouldn’t haven’t needed to be sacrificed if they had been willing to do what Hydaelyns summoners did.

In the end i think it’s subjective whether people like it or not, personally from what i see both in game story wise and also from an outside pov i think it’s incredibly better. That’s not me saying it’s perfect or the best ever, but compared to the sundered world of countless war and strife and also shorter lifespans, hell ye i’d pick the unsundered world over that one.

Then the question remains. What exactly did the Ancients suffer that would prepare them for Meteion. We know it’s not death, as few even recognized the possibility of a death unchosen, and when the general populace has a taste they cry out to Zodiark in rage and despair (even after the Final Days are halted). It’s not food as they can make anything including candied apples, it’s not war as no conflict has ever occurred until the Sundering. And then when we do find suffering it’s in individuals on the outskirts or who are largely hiding it. Erichthonios was shunted off to Pandaemonium with no one really interested in hearing him complain after his mother died, and Hermes… well he’s got a lot to say on the Ancients and their willingness to suffer. So what exactly would prepare them for Meteion?

Also if i’m not mistaken in the volcano story, they sent Azem didn’t they? The way i saw it they didn’t want to interfere with the natural laws of things, and a volcanic eruption is a pretty natural phenomenon. They cared for the planet and didn’t want to affect it in crazy ways.

The island had one village upon it, and a wealth of fertile farmland─all of which would soon be lost. But that was simply the way of the world. As in many such cases, our role was merely to acknowledge the fact. The islanders would do the same, and those who deemed it prudent had likely already begun to move elsewhere. While it was true that the Convocation intended to discuss the matter, the conclusion would be no less inevitable…

"If things get out of hand, Azem could be censured again," and here the youth paused. "But I'm sure that won't happen. Not with your help."
My brow resumed its descent.
"...Very well. But are you certain it is wise for the emissary to ally himself with so divisive a figure?"

To state my own position, I think the latter interpretation that I mentioned before is the most likely one. The Volcano doesn’t seem to actually be much of threat to anyone, and the destruction of the village is given about equal weight to the loss of farmland. Neither of which seems important enough to intervene in the Convocation's eyes.

Also tbf, we don’t know anything about their past. Who knows what they faced back then as well, perhaps it’s something that contributed to their “current” way of life, who can say. There are also other ancient civilizations afaik outside of elpis and amaurot.

The Amaurotines see themselves as stewards of the star, and the Convocation apparently holds enough sway to convince the majority of the world to sacrifice themselves so I’d say it’s fair to view the Unsundered World and the Amaurotine one as the same, even if other civilizations existed (which does seem to be the case). If Square wants to explore the other cultures I would certainly enjoy that, but without evidence to the contrary I think we can assume they are at least similar to Amaurot.

[SannaR]

No part of that points to "Hades was also widely disliked before Azem guilt-tripped him into helping with problems all over the star, resulting in him getting an enormous boost in popularity and social standing that got Hades nominated for the position of Emet-Selch." being a reality. Please don't use your personal headcanon as reasoning. We are also told that Hythlodaeus is the one who recommended Hades to the seat of Emet-Selch because not only did he have exceptional sight, but was one of the most powerful mages alive. He was not scouted because of his "enormous boost in personality" after being terribly disliked for so long.

From the quest Their Greatest Contribution.

Hythlodaeus: "Thus did I recommend him for the office in my stead. And I wasn't the only one. Far from it.

Countless others vouched for his skill and character. People the world over, to whom he had previously lent a helping hand.

Oh how surprised he was. Claimed he hadn't done anything remarkable for anyone. Modest to a fault.

He deserves every bit of acclaim he received. Yet he may well have gone unappreciated were it not for a mutual friend.

A singular soul who can't help but involve (himself/herself) in the business of others. Where (he/she) walks, excitement is certain to follow.
(His/Her) antics irritate Emet-Selch to no end, but much of his grumbling stems from genuine concern.

When our friend calls, he never fails to answer and lend his talents.

And in the course of doing so, he himself came to be recognized and respected by those around him."

It comes off as part of the reason why Emet-Selch got looked at after Hythlodaeus turned down the job is due to "us" dragging him around during what might have been his ill begotten youth.

[PawPaw]

From the quest Their Greatest Contribution.

Hythlodaeus: "Thus did I recommend him for the office in my stead. And I wasn't the only one. Far from it.

Countless others vouched for his skill and character. People the world over, to whom he had previously lent a helping hand.

Oh how surprised he was. Claimed he hadn't done anything remarkable for anyone. Modest to a fault.

He deserves every bit of acclaim he received. Yet he may well have gone unappreciated were it not for a mutual friend.

A singular soul who can't help but involve (himself/herself) in the business of others. Where (he/she) walks, excitement is certain to follow.
(His/Her) antics irritate Emet-Selch to no end, but much of his grumbling stems from genuine concern.

When our friend calls, he never fails to answer and lend his talents.

And in the course of doing so, he himself came to be recognized and respected by those around him."

It comes off as part of the reason why Emet-Selch got looked at after Hythlodaeus turned down the job is due to "us" dragging him around during what might have been his ill begotten youth.

I'm a bit lost as to why you quoted me to be honest, I'm very aware of that quest and scene and again, absolutely nothing in that exchange suggests that "Hades was also widely disliked before Azem guilt-tripped him into helping with problems across the star" which was the assumption I was refuting. Did he travel with Azem? Yes, it is stated that he is widely traveled. Do I have any reason to believe that he was disliked by people universally until he began travelling with Azem? No, I do not as it is neither stated nor implied absolutely anywhere either in side story content or the game.

Did people not know him before he began tagging along in the wider world? Probably not, and therefore I agree that Azem was probably good for exposing him to others outside of Amaurot, but that's where the assumptions end.

[Rulakir]

Ishikawa said herself in an interview that Hades' kindness was his downfall. His recognition may have come from being more in the public eye due to Azem, but there's no reason to believe he wasn't acting in the benefit of others prior to that.

[Kozh]

How very convenient that they had no issue rewriting the planets apparent natural laws when THEIR lives were threatened.

Imagine comparing a volcano eruption to a freaking dying planet...

Funny how people always say "omg the play gods" when talking about the Ancients, but then expect them to interfere with every natural phenomenon. I thought having to experience hardship and suffering is needed according to Venat?

[EaraGrace]

Imagine comparing a volcano eruption to a freaking dying planet...

Funny how people always say "omg the play gods" when talking about the Ancients, but then expect them to interfere with every natural phenomenon. I thought having to experience hardship and suffering is needed according to Venat?

They do, I think people have problems with the “suffering for thee, but not for me.”

[KageTokage]

I got the vibe that suffering and hardship was so isolated of an occurrence that many simply couldn't relate to those who did experience loss through unnatural causes; the comically lackadaisical response to the incident in Akademia Aynder (Which was basically "Oh my, that sounds unpleasant. Anyways...) from outside parties being the first moment that stood out to me.

That said, their response to the Final Days really wasn't something I would've considered unreasonable in the slightest; much less trying to restore the lives of those who could reasonably be brought back. I was really expecting them to double down on why sacrificing other lives to such an end was bad for moral reasons, not the ideological reason that they were "weak" for not being able to cope with the loss of their loved ones.

[EaraGrace]

I got the vibe that suffering and hardship was so isolated of an occurrence that many simply couldn't relate to those who did experience loss through unnatural causes; the comically lackadaisical response to the incident in Akademia Aynder (Which was basically "Oh my, that sounds unpleasant. Anyways...) from outside parties being the first moment that stood out to me.

That said, their response to the Final Days really wasn't something I would've considered unreasonable in the slightest; much less trying to restore the lives of those who could reasonably be brought back. I was really expecting them to double down on why sacrificing other lives to such an end was bad for moral reasons, not the ideological reason that they were "weak" for not being able to cope with the loss of their loved ones.

I think the weakness angle stems not simply from desiring the return of those you lost, but the willingness to inflict that suffering on others in order to avoid facing it yourself. I doubt she would have been so forceful in that judgement should they have been simply struggling with moving on, and in fact I'd say she deeply empathized with that. In fact, should the Ancients have deeply struggled with their kin being gone, but decided that sacrificing new life was an unacceptable proposition, I think the way in which events played out would look very different.

[Kozh]

I think the weakness angle stems not simply from desiring the return of those you lost, but the willingness to inflict that suffering on others in order to avoid facing it yourself.

If that's the standard, I guess the sundered need another round of sundering then

Let's see, the Ironworks of 8UC who risked the whole word to dissappear. The Eorzean, Ala Mhigans and Domans who's willing to kill conscripted soldier to take back their lost freedom instead of "moving on". People in general who went ahead with their revenge for their loss (e.g estinien killing nidhogg, etc.). And many others. In fact, the sundered are more prone to violence than the unsundered.

As I've said before, we use our standard as mortal to unfairly judge the Ancients. We say "those lives have been lost, move on", because in real world, there's zero chance people coming back to life. That's not the case with the Ancients, probably. They have the means to bring back those they have lost, it's not a zero chance. You're telling me that we won't do the same should it's also the case for us or the sundered?

Ah yes, venat is so deeply empathized that she chose to not tell anyone about the final days, and prefer being vague as hell even when confronting the Ancients regarding their ""mistake"".