DPS/Healers pulling in dungeons

[Ath192]

A DPS pulling on behalf of the tank and using arms is something that appears pretty frequently in top dungeon speed-logs. It's something that has even higher value in a 3dps/1tank party, due to the finite amount of sustain the tank has. DPS health-bars can almost be perceived as an extra shield for the tank in some instances.

I don't think DPS shouldnt use it. after all its an OGCD that you can weave in when you get a chance or even go into a pull with it active. So you lose absolutely zero by having it on. It's the notion that a DPS should pull first and apply those debuffs to the all the mobs before the tank takes them as the optimal route that I dispute. We need to see whether tanks actually wait for the DPS to double pull and apply that debuff to mobs before the tank tries to take aggro for mitigation purposes or if they just go in with it on the off chance it may apply to any mobs. Given how noone waits for anything in a speed run I think its more a case of the latter than the former.

You wouldn't happen to have a video so we can see would you? I'm actually open to learning, the videos I linked don't show this behavior.

[KariTheFox]

I don't think DPS shouldnt use it. after all its an OGCD that you can weave in when you get a chance or even go into a pull with it active. So you lose absolutely zero by having it on. It's the notion that a DPS should pull first and apply those debuffs to the all the mobs before the tank takes them as the optimal route that I dispute. We need to see whether tanks actually wait for the DPS to double pull and apply that debuff to mobs before the tank tries to take aggro for mitigation purposes or if they just go in with it on the off chance it may apply to any mobs. Given how noone waits for anything in a speed run I think its more a case of the latter than the former.

You wouldn't happen to have a video so we can see would you? I'm actually open to learning, the videos I linked don't show this behavior.

I mean, we'd be talking razor thin margins in speedruns here. The time it should take a tank to catch up to a dps pulling should be less than a gcd - and the dps probably only get hit with one round of autos, but that should be enough to apply the arm's length debuff to some of the enemies and have it rolling for the pull.

[Ath192]

I mean, we'd be talking razor thin margins in speedruns here. The time it should take a tank to catch up to a dps pulling should be less than a gcd - and the dps probably only get hit with one round of autos, but that should be enough to apply the arm's length debuff to some of the enemies and have it rolling for the pull.

You know I even decided to check and see since Little Imp mentioned data and it seems that in top global speed runs of current dungeons only Ninja can reliably get ahead enough with its shukuchi to apply it to mobs. And some dps use it once even though it doesn’t manage to affect any mobs, others never. I even saw a WAR that didn’t use their arms length lol. I’ll stick with my position that it’s largely irrelevant seeing as some of these groups don’t even have a dps that can use arms length.

It was something like:
Top speed clear the dead ends:
BRD and BLM, no dps with arms length

Smileton:
A ninja landed slow on a total of 5 mobs

The Stigma dreamscape:
A dragoon used arms length but managed to slow no mobs at all

Alzadaal’s Legacy:
A dragoon used arms length but managed to slow no mobs at all

Make of that what you will but to me it means in rank 1 clear runs people don’t wait around for a dps to land an arms length on mobs. It’s just a nice thing if it happens.

At the end of the day though, in regular dungeons via DF the polite thing to do is wait for the tank to pull. No amount of salt is gonna convince me otherwise. I’m more interested in a chill experience than a fast one. After all if I wanted to optimize I wouldn’t be using the DF.

[LittleImp]

I don't think DPS shouldnt use it. after all its an OGCD that you can weave in when you get a chance or even go into a pull with it active. So you lose absolutely zero by having it on. It's the notion that a DPS should pull first and apply those debuffs to the all the mobs before the tank takes them as the optimal route that I dispute. We need to see whether tanks actually wait for the DPS to double pull and apply that debuff to mobs before the tank tries to take aggro for mitigation purposes or if they just go in with it on the off chance it may apply to any mobs. Given how noone waits for anything in a speed run I think its more a case of the latter than the former.

You wouldn't happen to have a video so we can see would you? I'm actually open to learning, the videos I linked don't show this behavior.

https://streamable.com/dsxtwd

There's no need to stall or wait, because jobs like NIN+BLM can outpace a tank by nature on many pulls. Arms mitigation is only one of numerous factors that makes DPS pulling optimal in certain segments in speeds.

The core point is that the tank pulling is essentially just a social contrivance in this game, born of people applying knowledge from other games and older times. People just shouldn't be getting frustrated enough to grief their party, including uninvolved members, over something that in gameplay terms just doesn't matter too much.

[Broken_Wind]

https://streamable.com/dsxtwd

There's no need to stall or wait, because jobs like NIN+BLM can outpace a tank by nature on many pulls. Arms mitigation is only one of numerous factors that makes DPS pulling optimal in certain segments in speeds.

The core point is that the tank pulling is essentially just a social contrivance in this game, born of people applying knowledge from other games and older times. People just shouldn't be getting frustrated enough to grief their party, including uninvolved members, over something that in gameplay terms just doesn't matter too much.

Im willing to bet the number of people that actually turn off tank stance is a lot lower than the number of people who say they will
I also think speed runners should ask first, at the very least outside of expert roulette. Its an alternative style of play that not everyone enjoys, especially if it is thrust on them.
Its not the standard behavior so a lot of the frustration probably comes from the surprise factor

To me its all a symptom of trash mobs needing a MASSIVE buff.
DPS should be in danger if they get aggro. Tanks should have to think twice before pulling wall to wall.
Add to that, AoE rotations are typically more boring than regular ones.