6.1 Samurai: the Kaiten removal was the right choice but it's not enough

[CapricaLangley]

You can't really support the removal of Kaiten, while also recognizing that an issue with Kenki is Shinten/Kyuten spam. This is a circumstance from the removal of Kaiten, and also Seigan as Kenki spenders.

The point I try to make with this post is that if we take a closer look to Kaiten from a game design perspective, apart from emotional attachment and habits, (IMHO) is clear that it's an unnecessary skill. And when I realized that the main Kenki spender in the rotation is an unnecessary skill, I started to question the whole Kenki system. That's why I suggest that Kaiten is a symptom from a different disease, and why in my opinion bringing back Kaiten won't solve the problem.

Again, I'm well aware that a lot of players don't see this as a problem, but I think the job might get better if the removal of Kaiten was just the first step in a bigger SAM resource rework.

[Kaseladen]

The point I try to make with this post is that if we take a closer look to Kaiten from a game design perspective, apart from emotional attachment and habits, (IMHO) is clear that it's an unnecessary skill. And when I realized that the main Kenki spender in the rotation is an unnecessary skill, I started to question the whole Kenki system. That's why I suggest that Kaiten is a symptom from a different disease, and why in my opinion bringing back Kaiten won't solve the problem.

Again, I'm well aware that a lot of players don't see this as a problem, but I think the job might get better if the removal of Kaiten was just the first step in a bigger SAM resource rework.

And his point is you don't seem to be good at game design

[CapricaLangley]

And his point is you don't seem to be good at game design

That makes perfectly sense, I'm not a game designer, I have no defense on that. But why would the devs - seasoned game designers - think to remove the skill in the first place in your opinion?

[cjbeagle]

That makes perfectly sense, I'm not a game designer, I have no defense on that. But why would the devs - seasoned game designers - think to remove the skill in the first place in your opinion?

According to them, action bloat or button bloat or something? Whatever their reason, the solution was horrid - obviously not made by someone who actually cares about the job, seeing as they didn't bother to think about it enough to realize that there were multiple, obvious, less destructive, better options for pruning.

Pacing is important in game design, as is psychology, and Kaiten influenced both - the skill itself didn't do any damage, but you knew it was going to make your next hit monstrous, heightening the sense of anticipation for your Iaijutsu. The animation was satisfying. The audio was satisfying. Play enough samurai and the anim and/or audio might even act as conditioning triggers since the big payoff from Iaijutsu always follows. Kaiten also guaranteed that when playing optimally, you always wove an OGCD right before Iaijutsu, which makes the cast time on Iaijutsu more pronounced since you can't weave while casting, then as soon as Iaijutsu goes off you follow with another attack since the GCD was rolling during the cast time, so a nice, if not incredible burst of damage between the 2 attacks to pay off the anticipation. You'll hear terms like "intensity curve" thrown around a lot in design discussions, and the flatter it is, the worse - you want strong peaks, which often means intentional valleys - Kaiten served multiple purposes from a design perspective in terms of player engagement by guaranteeing a more interesting RDM-style double-action, pause, double-action cadence for each Iaijutsu use while also accentuating the lull of Iaijutsu's cast bar and increasing anticipation actively.

Without Kaiten being used before every Iaijutsu, you lose the guaranteed RDM cadance for Iaijutsu, which makes using it more "normal" and stand out less in your rotation.
Without Kaiten you no longer have satisfying animation/audio to herald an incoming Iaijutsu to bolster anticipation.
Without Kaiten you can now weave Shinten right before Iaijutsu, reducing the valley before the peak, which effectively reduces the peak since its impact is relative to the valley before it.
Without Kaiten your kenki gauge is completely independent from your stickers - kenki can now be used whenever you like - it has no bearing on your rotation and is no longer truly part of it - it's purely filler.

There's more to be said but I hope this makes sense - there's a lot more to what an ability actually does than "what does it do?".

[RankaPC]

The only way you can support the removal of Kaiten is if they replaced it with a different skill that also utilizes Kenki or adds some form of complexity to the class, except they didn't do that.

Kaiten was what added complexity to the Samurai and now that it's gone, the class feels bare bones.

The developers said they felt restricted with Kaiten in the game. If that's the case.... they should only remove Kaiten when they have new skills to replace it, but they didn't do that either. They just outright removed it.

[Gemina]

The point I try to make with this post is that if we take a closer look to Kaiten from a game design perspective, apart from emotional attachment and habits, (IMHO) is clear that it's an unnecessary skill. And when I realized that the main Kenki spender in the rotation is an unnecessary skill, I started to question the whole Kenki system. That's why I suggest that Kaiten is a symptom from a different disease, and why in my opinion bringing back Kaiten won't solve the problem.

Again, I'm well aware that a lot of players don't see this as a problem, but I think the job might get better if the removal of Kaiten was just the first step in a bigger SAM resource rework.

I understand your point, but "unnecessary" is an objective point of view. It's the same as if I were to say that every oGCD in the game is unnecessary. It's an objective viewpoint because I can make a case that any benefit they bring can be baked into GCD skills, and they just give you something to press in between them. While this is true, and the game would function just fine this way; it would slow down combat, and sluggishly so. It would drastically impact how the game would feel. Removing Kaiten does exactly the same thing to SAM, just on a smaller scale; but it indeed was the straw that broke the camel's back.

Now, if they did revert the change, it would not change the other issues SAM has that you and other posters have brought up. The bigger problem with this when I zoom out, is that simply reverting SAM to 6.0, or even around 5.5 also won't fix SAM. Players have now gotten used to the two charges for Meikyo and Tsubame, and taking those away will bust rotations once again. Seigan can't return in its previous form as it will add back a button. And that's not even going into potencies. As I said in another thread, SAM has a very long road ahead of it now, and calls for an entire rework are likely inevitable as well.