What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[Rulakir]

The language in the codex just sounds abusive, frankly. It's a combination of "I love you so much that's why I hurt you", "this hurts me more than it hurts you", and "look what you made me do!"

There was a thread on Reddit today talking about what Azem was doing during the Final Days and some people still insist that they would've been working with Venat who would've told them everything. I may be biased AF, but where in the game would anyone get that impression? Both Ardbert and the WoL had unwavering loyalty to their world and were willing to throw others under the bus to save it. Plus, ask if Hydaelyn had told the WoL that she needed to sunder the world again for its own good if the WoL would accept that and help or fight her tooth and nail (with the Scions in the background giving a grandiose speech about being in charge of their own destiny)? Cause there's your answer as to what Azem would've done. I suspect she knew that and didn't tell Azem anything, especially as there'd be no point in her followers soliciting Azem if they knew she'd spoken to them.

Edit: I keep forgetting to mention if you haven't seen the new Lahabrea solo duty it's interesting. He basically effortlessly KOs the WoL, but then Hydaelyn revives you and gives you a power up to be able to defeat him. Obviously, I'm not keen on the Hydaelyn part, but I do like that they're consistent now with the WoL being easily defeated by the unsundered without significant assistance from outsiders.

[PawPaw]

The language in the codex just sounds abusive, frankly. It's a combination of "I love you so much that's why I hurt you", "this hurts me more than it hurts you", and "look what you made me do!"

There was a thread on Reddit today talking about what Azem was doing during the Final Days and some people still insist that they would've been working with Venat who would've told them everything. I may be biased AF, but where in the game would anyone get that impression? Both Ardbert and the WoL had unwavering loyalty to their world and were willing to throw others under the bus to save it. Plus, ask if Hydaelyn had told the WoL that she needed to sunder the world again for its own good if the WoL would accept that and help or fight her tooth and nail (with the Scions in the background giving a grandiose speech about being in charge of their own destiny)? Cause there's your answer as to what Azem would've done. I suspect she knew that and didn't tell Azem anything, especially as there'd be no point in her followers soliciting Azem if they knew she'd spoken to them.

The response to this question in the LL was so ridiculous. If they have a plan for what Azem was canonically doing during the Final Days then just say "we can't speak about it, you'll find out later.". Saying "whatever you would be doing is what they would be doing" is like ????!!. Well, if Venat had clued me in on her grand plans, I wouldn't be allowing some lunatic to destroy the world and everyone I love because of her own, subjective reasons and would have fought her to the death. Is that how Azem died? So are you gonna write a new story for me because that's what my Azem would be doing?

And assuming that Azem knew nothing, just like everyone else, and that the reason for the split from the Convocation was because they disapproved of Zodiark being the answer, then they'd be out there trying to find an alternative way to save their world. But hey, no matter what I think my Azem would be doing, the writers will surely correct my wayward beliefs and tell me exactly what she was doing and how she was feeling while doing it somewhere down the line.

[Nilroreo]

There was a thread on Reddit today talking about what Azem was doing during the Final Days and some people still insist that they would've been working with Venat who would've told them everything.

Wouldn't the fact that we're currently sundered imply that Azem didn't actually join them? The rest of her followers were consumed by Hydaelyn. Also, there's already dialogue that implies Azem ghosted everyone. "I had hoped that the defector, at least, would side with us, but I regret to report our overtures have gone unanswered."

Also I might be behind the curve, but upon reviewing that clip, I cant help but notice there's 12 Ancients just standing there with her...

[PawPaw]

Also I might be behind the curve, but upon reviewing that clip, I cant help but notice there's 12 Ancients just standing there with her...

Yep, assuming you're making the connection between twelve followers and "The Twelve", it's been speculation ever since that scene popped up in ShB. Yoshida said that their souls were entirely consumed by the creation of Hydaelyn, though, so if they are the gods then maybe they were created by her as some sort of weird "tribute".

[Skyborne]

Edit: I keep forgetting to mention if you haven't seen the new Lahabrea solo duty it's interesting. He basically effortlessly KOs the WoL, but then Hydaelyn revives you and gives you a power up to be able to defeat him. Obviously, I'm not keen on the Hydaelyn part, but I do like that they're consistent now with the WoL being easily defeated by the unsundered without significant assistance from outsiders.

Mankind must walk indeed. Or be carried in the arms of a winged goddess. At least he's less of a meme now.

Wouldn't the fact that we're currently sundered imply that Azem didn't actually join them? The rest of her followers were consumed by Hydaelyn. Also, there's already dialogue that implies Azem ghosted everyone. "I had hoped that the defector, at least, would side with us, but I regret to report our overtures have gone unanswered."

Also I might be behind the curve, but upon reviewing that clip, I cant help but notice there's 12 Ancients just standing there with her...

Those 12? Just well-wishers seeing off Venat as she alone sacrifices her flesh and soul to be the lone rebel of the evilbadboomer world order. Also, the Sundering was her stepping on Zodiark with a plushie squeak noise, then rainbows and Argos puppies flying out of the reality-cracks as the Ancients all suddenly see the light and agree with her philosophy and raise their arms to rejoice and cheer!

[Lauront]

Mankind must walk indeed. Or be carried in the arms of a winged goddess. At least he's less of a meme now.



Those 12? Just well-wishers seeing off Venat as she alone sacrifices her flesh and soul to be the lone rebel of the evilbadboomer world order. Also, the Sundering was her stepping on Zodiark with a plushie squeak noise, then rainbows and Argos puppies flying out of the reality-cracks as the Ancients all suddenly see the light and agree with her philosophy and raise their arms to rejoice and cheer!

I think I'm just going to headcanon that everything after that Lahabrea killshot is a rabid fever dream. The WoL is 14's Squall now.

[Lauront]

Edit: I keep forgetting to mention if you haven't seen the new Lahabrea solo duty it's interesting. He basically effortlessly KOs the WoL, but then Hydaelyn revives you and gives you a power up to be able to defeat him. Obviously, I'm not keen on the Hydaelyn part, but I do like that they're consistent now with the WoL being easily defeated by the unsundered without significant assistance from outsiders.

Damn, that's a much better fight sequence; and he's still said to be worn down. I assume Hydaelyn's intervention and him not taking a rest to recover properly from that is why he's weaker in ARF. So technically, that'd make him the first and one of the only characters to fell the WoL. Had a more powerful Ascian than Nabriales pursued them when the Blessing was gone, when she wasn't carrying the "bright little spark", it might've ended rather differently (at this point, I wish it had... ) I'm curious as to whether they'll give him a fight in Pandaemonium - even if of the "oh no he's mind-controlled" variety - just to see him at his full strength.

Yep, assuming you're making the connection between twelve followers and "The Twelve", it's been speculation ever since that scene popped up in ShB. Yoshida said that their souls were entirely consumed by the creation of Hydaelyn, though, so if they are the gods then maybe they were created by her as some sort of weird "tribute".

Part of me wonders if they're spontaneously summoned primals. The setting has some manner of collective memory or knowledge that survives in the Aetherial Sea, which Primals like Ramuh seemingly are able to draw upon - and apparently, Sephirot; this knowledge survives in souls in the form of dreams etc (questions 14 and 19 here touch on it). The notion of a wise and learned body of powerful specialists overseeing the world's affairs may have survived in that sense, and we know from Susano that spontaneous summons are possible. It may be why they genuinely are not beast tribe type primals and do not see themselves as such, but aren't "gods" (or at least not gods which are something other than man's creations), so much as summons of a kind. We'll see.