What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[Fiel_Tana]

I have a theory that the story we got is not the story that was originally written and some pieces were left behind in a rushed rewrite.

Things like that line about Hydaelyn sundering herself doesn't make sense within the story we were shown. If she was sundered, why did she become weaker against Zodiark with each rejoining? They'd be gaining strength at the same rate.

Other scenes like in Elpis when we're shown how to use the echo to read the history of a place also seems out of place and causes story inconsistency.
That means Venat could have easily shown trusted people the truth of what they were to face. Why would Emet & Hytho not even bother taking a peek to see what happened during their mind-wipe and that Venat & Azem's familiar also entered but didn't come out? Really?! No one was the least bit curious?

If that scene weren't added, those questions wouldn't come up... but it was. So what does that scene really add to the story we got?

[Lauront]

So I'm curious about this. I understand the information comes from a QnA, but the implication that if one piece of the soul is lost then all the others are too. We know that death doesn't qualify for this as Ardbert died without us dying. The soul being destroyed begs the question, do any of the souls in those primals go back to the lifestream? We summon Hyth so that seems possible, but it also seems contradictory. Also, if one soul shard being lost deletes the rest, what about all the blasphemies? Obviously there are now several shards that are just lost but did that delete their reflections too?

That information is specific to primals, I believe. Reproduced:

Q: Were Zodiark and Hydaelyn completely destroyed? Or there are still Sundered parts of them on other Reflections?
A: To be really frank on this one and to give you a very straight answer here, Hydaelyn was completely destroyed. Similarly, Fandaniel crushed Zodiark’s heart which is his core and that completely destroys Zodiark. There were of course parts of Zodiark in the other Reflections when he was sealed and split across all of them but at the same time of his main body was destroyed, they all would have also faded into oblivion.

For some reason the souls must've been housed with the core, on the Source.

I suspect she probably did what you suggested and somehow retrieved her other parts.

I have a theory that the story we got is not the story that was originally written and some pieces were left behind in a rushed rewrite.

Based on this, I am inclined to agree. She had also expressed concerns about this before, here.

Things like that line about Hydaelyn sundering herself doesn't make sense within the story we were shown. If she was sundered, why did she become weaker against Zodiark with each rejoining? They'd be gaining strength at the same rate.

I'll see if I can dig up anything on them addressing this. It would be compatible with an explanation like Xirean mentioned, whereby she gathers her shards up, so she's back at her full strength early on, but as the Rejoinings proceeds, Zodiark gains more and more power.

Other scenes like in Elpis when we're shown how to use the echo to read the history of a place also seems out of place and causes story inconsistency.
That means Venat could have easily shown trusted people the truth of what they were to face. Why would Emet & Hytho not even bother taking a peek to see what happened during their mind-wipe and that Venat & Azem's familiar also entered but didn't come out? Really?! No one was the least bit curious?

If that scene weren't added, those questions wouldn't come up... but it was. So what does that scene really add to the story we got?

Agreed.

[Fiel_Tana]

Based on this, I am inclined to agree. She had also expressed concerns about this before, here.

I'll see if I can dig up anything on them addressing this. It would be compatible with an explanation like Xirean mentioned, whereby she gathers her shards up, so she's back at her full strength early on, but as the Rejoinings proceeds, Zodiark gains more and more power.

Agreed.

Thank you for those links! That does support the theory. I really wish we could have seen what may have been written.

I'll look around to find that bit about her gathering her shards earlier as well. Her being sundered has always confused me but I likely missed something. Still leaves me wondering why put that in the story since it also adds nothing to the narrative unless, as I said, I missed something.

[CrownySuccubus]

Sorry to dredge up something from a page ago, but I wanted to conclude this point:

I don't feel a personal stake - I'd assumed you were making a general statement but thought I'd comment on it from my perspective.

Which is why I can only reply with "if you say so". Your statement of "well, I don't qualify for that" is pretty much what 99% of people would claim, since (as I keep saying) almost no one would admit otherwise.

Since you affirm that you have no personal stake, and there's no means to verify either way, I don't see why we need to keep going over this.

Regarding the second paragraph, I believe it is difficult to take up a hobby and not feel any of those but they're also quite different things to bragging at that point, which is done to flaunt something for the purposes of improving social standing. I'd perhaps demur from the "makes them special" part, but in the sense that people expect some manner of emotional payoff/satisfaction from investing time in a hobby, which can come in the form of those things you mention? Yes, absolutely, and I think it'd be difficult to pursue a hobby while detaching completely from such emotions.

There is a decidedly gray line between the point where becoming invested in a hobby turns into assimilating said hobby as a sense of pride, identity or self-worth, and human beings in general have a very hard time recognizing when that line has been crossed. Given that this can happen to a person thousands of times in their lifetimes, it's near impossible for any one person to be perfectly aware of it.

[Lauront]

Well if you feel there is no further point in discussing it, I am happy to end that there.

Thank you for those links! That does support the theory. I really wish we could have seen what may have been written.

I'll look around to find that bit about her gathering her shards earlier as well. Her being sundered has always confused me but I likely missed something. Still leaves me wondering why put that in the story since it also adds nothing to the narrative unless, as I said, I missed something.

It was implied in the Word of the Mother scene, which is why I believe they felt the need to go through with it. She gives her reasoning in EW that she couldn't overcome Zodiark (necessary to enact her plan on the ancients) because he was so mighty, hence sundering him, herself and the star to achieve the goal.

Thus was I forced to banish Him unto the distant heavens, to forever remain apart. A moon bound. In sundering the star did we cry out, and the barriers 'twixt planes chance to falter. Across ten and three were we then divided

With that said, a good portion of that scene was fiction on her part anyway, so not sure why they felt compelled to stick with it, as it just complicates things in weird ways, which they didn't make good use of, either.

[Fiel_Tana]

Hmm, yeah that scene struck me as odd when levelling an alt since, as you said, "a good portion of that scene was fiction on her part anyway" but you're right, it does imply she was also sundered.

I still haven't found anywhere saying she gathered her shards early on, or anything that explains why she got weaker with each rejoining. It's clearly stated many times that she does get weaker, but the 'why' of it always confused me.

Really, with EWs many plot-holes this one is fairly minor, but it does seem like that bit of lore should have led somewhere since it was restated in EW. If not leading somewhere in the current story, leaving that concept in a fuzzily worded, long-past quest would make more sense... unless a hasty rewrite was done and that line was accidentally left in, which is looking more probable now.

[Xirean]

Hmm, yeah that scene struck me as odd when levelling an alt since, as you said, "a good portion of that scene was fiction on her part anyway" but you're right, it does imply she was also sundered.

I still haven't found anywhere saying she gathered her shards early on, or anything that explains why she got weaker with each rejoining. It's clearly stated many times that she does get weaker, but the 'why' of it always confused me.

Really, with EWs many plot-holes this one is fairly minor, but it does seem like that bit of lore should have led somewhere since it was restated in EW. If not leading somewhere in the current story, leaving that concept in a fuzzily worded, long-past quest would make more sense... unless a hasty rewrite was done and that line was accidentally left in, which is looking more probable now.

The Watcher mentions that because the rejoinings make Zodiark stronger, she has to spend more energy holding him. If we set that concept of her being sundered aside, this would make a lot of sense. Zodiark is composed of a lot more souls than she ever was, so splitting him up into manageable chunks tactically would make sense.

[Rulakir]

The Watcher mentions that because the rejoinings make Zodiark stronger, she has to spend more energy holding him. If we set that concept of her being sundered aside, this would make a lot of sense. Zodiark is composed of a lot more souls than she ever was, so splitting him up into manageable chunks tactically would make sense.

This is another reason why Hydaelyn sundering herself doesn't make sense to me. Seems like she'd want to stay at full power on the Source to keep Zodiark's core imprisoned, especially as she knows she's going to struggle with it.

[Fiel_Tana]

The Watcher mentions that because the rejoinings make Zodiark stronger, she has to spend more energy holding him. If we set that concept of her being sundered aside, this would make a lot of sense. Zodiark is composed of a lot more souls than she ever was, so splitting him up into manageable chunks tactically would make sense.

Heh to be fair yeah, ignoring various parts of this story does help EWs plot make sense. (edited to add that this is not a go at you in any way, please don't read it as such)

This is another reason why Hydaelyn sundering herself doesn't make sense to me. Seems like she'd want to stay at full power on the Source to keep Zodiark's core imprisoned, especially as she knows she's going to struggle with it.

^ This! And she wouldn't get weaker against him with each rejoining if she's also sundered and being rejoined at the same rate. Makes no sense.

EW has more lost threads and inconsistencies than usual. Often good writers will leave threads to potentially pick up later, those thread however should never interfere or contradict the story currently being told. This example (and a few others) do whilst adding nothing to the current story.

I've enjoyed Ishikawa's other stories (that I've done so far) which is why I'm leaning towards this either being a rushed rewrite with someone on the team being VERY pro-hydaelyn insisting on her being portrayed as "pure saint-like goodness" and "absolutely not grey" causing this hurried rewrite.

There're too many base plot inconsistencies that can't be explained as "not having a deep understanding Buddhist theory and other religious philosophies" (which in my case, fair, I do not), "JuST NoT thiNKInG" (!), or the other excuses floating around this community as to why many players are confused / dissatisfied with the story.

This story makes my head and heart hurt. (._.)

[Lauront]

There's nothing I'm aware of about her gathering her shards - it's more that it's a good guess. On the topic of her growing weaker through the Ardor/Rejoinings, that's what I think they may have commented on but I'll need to check if I can find it, assuming I'm not misremembering.