Yoshi-P: "If you want more engaging content, go play Ultimate"

[Deceptus]

I dont want to bring logs here again but there is no tank that from the easiest to the hardest content spends over 50% of their cpm pressing the same button over and over, tanks are included in speedruns,

We press our Direct Damage ability (Glare etc) as much as tanks autoattack. Let that sink in for a minute. . .

[WaxSw]

We press our Direct Damage ability (Glare etc) as much as tanks autoattack. Let that sink in for a minute. . .

Wait let me check that with tank logs for a sec...



...holy shit is right

[Semirhage]

What we need is a way to hammer our points home in a way that doesn't get met with blank stares and non-sequitur "but you should be healing". Unfortunately we haven't found one yet.

Brings me to a thought tangent. I have yet to play a game (of any variety) where a die-hard DPS (or the game's equivalent) main has anything approaching an informed or coherent opinion on the support role. They don't get it. It's always "you have fun <supporting> so just...do it more and it's fun." There's no theory of mind for support mains because they're used to their primary role being infinitely scalable and useful and hone-able. Until they approach a support role in a serious way that isn't just queue or achievement hunting, they usually don't *get* it. One of my static's DPS offered to heal this tier and I was all for it. Now he gets it. And he -hates- healer design.

What I suspect is that we're going to continue getting dead stares and "but you're a healer so you should heal" in response to detailed criticism of the role design until someone with a voice and veto power fecking PLAYS one, because until then you're going to get the usual "I don't see the problem" DPS player thoughtless take on it.

[Nethereal]

What we need is a way to hammer our points home in a way that doesn't get met with blank stares and non-sequitur "but you should be healing". Unfortunately we haven't found one yet.

Brings me to a thought tangent. I have yet to play a game (of any variety) where a die-hard DPS (or the game's equivalent) main has anything approaching an informed or coherent opinion on the support role. They don't get it. It's always "you have fun <supporting> so just...do it more and it's fun." There's no theory of mind for support mains because they're used to their primary role being infinitely scalable and useful and hone-able. Until they approach a support role in a serious way that isn't just queue or achievement hunting, they usually don't *get* it. One of my static's DPS offered to heal this tier and I was all for it. Now he gets it. And he -hates- healer design.

What I suspect is that we're going to continue getting dead stares and "but you're a healer so you should heal" in response to detailed criticism of the role design until someone with a voice and veto power fecking PLAYS one, because until then you're going to get the usual "I don't see the problem" DPS player thoughtless take on it.

I would say the thing worse than that is simply the people who bring up the issues have no skin in the game so when people simply say "You should be healing though." nobody has the foresight to understand and say "There's nothing to heal though?"

So I don't think the healing issue will ever fixed unless like you said someone on the dev team or above actually plays the class to a decent level. And even then they might just be "too good" for them and need replacing.

To be honest I think it could be very realistic for them to simply turn all of our GCD heals into dual skills. Where it's either a heal or a damaging ability/skill dependent on who we have selected as target.
This would easily give us 3-5 additional damage buttons with no bloat. Think Eukrasia but better & different.

[Lium]

Oh man. Threads like this are so reminiscent of threads on the WoW forums circa 2009 when there was an endless deluge of complaints that the game was too easy and classes were too boring.

Blizzard responded by releasing Cataclysm, which was an expansion that revamped the old world and combat across the board. No more tanks running in doing wall to wall pulls, no more DPS tunneling on boss fights. No more healers DPSing. We’re going back to 2004, they said. CC and utility were crucial. Fights were substantially more difficult and content in general was exponentially more challenging.

The result?

Everyone complained the game was too hard. Loudly. Blizzard then said, basically, they thought this is what the players wanted and that the players would adjust to the new difficulty. They were mistaken.

Blizzard ended up nerfing the expansion after a couple patches back to where it was when the game had like 12 million subs.

Guarantee that if Yoshi gives in to these threads and increases the difficulty of normal content, while making jobs more engaging to play, they will be met with the same response. There was already threads on here complaining that the EW trial bosses were too hard.

I bet 401(k) which is actually looking pretty good right now, that the exact same thing that happened in WoW will happen here, if SE buffs difficulty. The exact same thing.

[Semirhage]

Oh man. Threads like this are so reminiscent of threads on the WoW forums circa 2009 when there was an endless deluge of complaints that the game was too easy and classes were too boring.

Blizzard responded by releasing Cataclysm, which was an expansion that revamped the old world and combat across the board. No more tanks running in doing wall to wall pulls, no more DPS tunneling on boss fights. No more healers DPSing. We’re going back to 2004, they said. CC and utility were crucial. Fights were substantially more difficult and content in general was exponentially more challenging.

The result?

Everyone complained the game was too hard. Loudly. Blizzard then said, basically, they thought this is what the players wanted and that the players would adjust to the new difficulty. They were mistaken.

Blizzard ended up nerfing the expansion after a couple patches back to where it was when the game had like 12 million subs.

Guarantee that if Yoshi gives in to these threads and increases the difficulty of normal content, while making jobs more engaging to play, they will be met with the same response. There was already threads on here complaining that the EW trial bosses were too hard.

I bet 401(k) which is actually looking pretty good right now, that the exact same thing that happened in WoW will happen here, if SE buffs difficulty. The exact same thing.

We don't even need difficulty. We need engagement. We spend 90% of all content going 111111111111111. It's boring as hell. Keep things as babymode as they are if that's what the community needs to drag themselves through story. But please, please, give me something to do that isn't Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare. That's embarrassing. PHONE games are more entertaining than that.

[Nethereal]

Oh man. Threads like this are so reminiscent of threads on the WoW forums circa 2009 when there was an endless deluge of complaints that the game was too easy and classes were too boring.

Blizzard responded by releasing Cataclysm, which was an expansion that revamped the old world and combat across the board. No more tanks running in doing wall to wall pulls, no more DPS tunneling on boss fights. No more healers DPSing. We’re going back to 2004, they said. CC and utility were crucial. Fights were substantially more difficult and content in general was exponentially more challenging.

The result?

Everyone complained the game was too hard. Loudly. Blizzard then said, basically, they thought this is what the players wanted and that the players would adjust to the new difficulty. They were mistaken.

Blizzard ended up nerfing the expansion after a couple patches back to where it was when the game had like 12 million subs.

Guarantee that if Yoshi gives in to these threads and increases the difficulty of normal content, while making jobs more engaging to play, they will be met with the same response. There was already threads on here complaining that the EW trial bosses were too hard.

I bet 401(k) which is actually looking pretty good right now, that the exact same thing that happened in WoW will happen here, if SE buffs difficulty. The exact same thing.

Seems like a failure on the companies side.

There are plenty of ways to make difficult content while keeping the easy content. They're not exclusive.
Simply removing all the easy content and making everything hard instead of integrating the difficulties together seems like they just didn't understand how to make a good game.
If what you're saying is true Blizzard literally went from clown town straight off the deep end. Even in the name of listening to the players that's extremely naive you need to test the waters before you jump in.

That's not really what's being asked for here to begin with though. Largely this thread is about solving the engagement issue of content, specifically jobs, especially healers who in a vacuum are relegated to a 1-3 buttons to clear content.

[Raskbuck]

I think I'd prefer if I was pressured to use my tools more during casual content. Right now it's a Glare fest with very little healing to do.

Healing an Alliance Raid when it just comes out is fun though. Mostly because people make more mistakes, and I find patching them up fun. It's the whole reason I got into healing in the first place, and not this one button spam that we've been doing since level 4 or so.

Unfortunately once people have memorized the mechanics, it's back to the same old routine. Sometimes it feels like a healer's complexity is directly opposed to the party's know-how. If everyone runs things efficiently, it makes for a very dull healing experience; and if they are inexperienced, you are urged to use your whole kit.

It almost feels like it's a design flaw at its core. But I'm not a game designer, so what do I know. All I know is that pressing the same button over and over again isn't too fun, despite healing being my passion since I started playing MMOs.

[Fukuro]

It almost makes it feel like it's a design flaw at its core. But I'm not a game designer, so what do I know. All I know is that pressing the same button over and over again isn't too fun, despite healing being my passion since I started playing MMOs.

It‘s just bad design. We need to give Yoshi-P credit where credits due. He does a good job in the fields he‘s good at. He mains black mage and it‘s no coincidence that job feels and plays nice. The problem is he seems to have that „ideal“ vision how healers need to be, without really playing one himself. Questions in Q&A‘s get changed or don‘t get taken seriously which just adds to the frustration.

As a DPS I get to use my whole kit in every aspect of the game, no matter how easy or difficult the content is. As a healer you get told to „git gud“ and do ultimate to have fun playing your job.

[Silver-Strider]

Snip

Asking for complexity and engagement =/= difficulty.

I don't need Ultimate level content in my expert roulette. I simply want more to do.

I want Regen to proc a Thundercloud-esque buff for Dia. It makes Regen actually worth using and gives me something to watch for.
I want Lilies to get an oGCD attack combo action, in a similar vein to GNB's Continuation combo so that I don't just sit there for 2.5s doing nothing after using a Lily spell since I don't have much to weave with while also making Misery DPS neutral by association.
I want them to return Aero 3, even if it doesn't stack with Dia, just so that I have an AoE DoT to round out my AoE rotation. Why do we have a ST and AoE nuke but no AoE DoT to go along our ST DoT?
I want Holy to be 1.5s to cast so that I can weave what few oGCDS I do have without clipping and not having to worry about constantly moving out of AoEs once my stun has worn off.

Nothing there is overly complicated nor does it magically increase difficulty in regards to content. If anything, it makes content easier because I can contribute more than I am doing while keeping me from AFKing on netflix while I hit Glare for the 1000th time that instance.

As for people complaining about the current content being too hard, F them I say. I'm tired of carrying people that still don't know what a stack marker is at level 90. I'm tired of non mitigation tanks, curebot healers, Ice Mages, etc. They don't want to improve and have dumbed down the game so much that if they all dropped the game because it was too hard for them, all the better.