If you continue to dumb down the game, you will lose half your player base

[Ransu]

WoW's problems were content and a myriad of other things, not "simplification." Ya'll also severely overestimate the outlook of the game based on the forums which is a minority of the minority of the playerbase.

[Theodric]

WoW's problems were content and a myriad of other things, not "simplification." Ya'll also severely overestimate the outlook of the game based on the forums which is a minority of the minority of the playerbase.

The lack of content is a common enough complaint for FFXIV as well. Many of us have played WoW and have seen its decline in real time over the years and are now identifying similar trends where this game is concerned. Much like FFXIV, even to this very day WoW has long had some very vocal players seeking to downplay concerns and try and dismiss concerns as the voices of a 'minority'. In actuality, it isn't unreasonable to suggest that many of those deliberately seeking the game's official forum to post on are doing so because of passion and investment.

[HyoMinPark]

WoW's problems were content and a myriad of other things, not "simplification." Ya'll also severely overestimate the outlook of the game based on the forums which is a minority of the minority of the playerbase.

The lack of content is a common enough complaint for FFXIV as well. Many of us have played WoW and have seen its decline in real time over the years and are now identifying similar trends where this game is concerned. Much like FFXIV, even to this very day WoW has long had some very vocal players seeking to downplay concerns and try and dismiss concerns as the voices of a 'minority'. In actuality, it isn't unreasonable to suggest that many of those deliberately seeking the game's official forum to post on are doing so because of passion and investment.

I also want to add to this that, just because someone doesn’t come here and post doesn’t mean that they are inherently satisfied. They could just be completely apathetic to the state of things at this point. Or maybe they couldn’t care less about what’s happening. Maybe they don’t have an opinion. Or maybe they truly are satisfied. All that said, you cannot take these silent bystanders and include them in this “majority versus minority” argument when you don’t even know their stance.

[Syln]

I also want to add to this that, just because someone doesn’t come here and post doesn’t mean that they are inherently satisfied. They could just be completely apathetic to the state of things at this point. Or maybe they couldn’t care less about what’s happening. Maybe they don’t have an opinion. Or maybe they truly are satisfied. All that said, you cannot take these silent bystanders and include them in this “majority versus minority” argument when you don’t even know their stance.

Was about to reply something along those lines.

[Ronduwil]

The lack of content is a common enough complaint for FFXIV as well. Many of us have played WoW and have seen its decline in real time over the years and are now identifying similar trends where this game is concerned. Much like FFXIV, even to this very day WoW has long had some very vocal players seeking to downplay concerns and try and dismiss concerns as the voices of a 'minority'. In actuality, it isn't unreasonable to suggest that many of those deliberately seeking the game's official forum to post on are doing so because of passion and investment.

Like WoW, there is a minority of a minority here on the forums that believes it's their way or the highway. Unlike WoW, SE isn't caving into those ridiculous demands. Here's what was done at the behest of the forum goers in WoW that has completely tanked the game:

• Flying was removed from relevant endgame areas.
• Rewards for max-level Normal and Heroic Dungeons were nerfed to the point where they're not even as good as the MSQ-equivalent rewards.
• Leveling was reduced from a multi-month joyride for the average player to a 26-hour borefest.
• The currency vendors were removed for everyone except Mythic players.
• The endgame dungeons that drop relevant gear are no longer available via the dungeon finder (WoW's version of the Roulette)
• Crafting is completely worthless for anyone who is not willing to play the game 24/7 in the first few weeks of a given content drop.

Sorry, but revamping the talent system to make it easier to balance classes doesn't even make the list of my grievances against that game. FFXIV has always worked the same way in that regard, too. When you play a job, you play that job with the skills you're given. Am I sad that instead of worrying bout 18 buttons on my Samurai I now only have 17? Not really. I'm more bummed about the cool animation going away, but it doesn't completely destroy the class the way so many seem be suggesting.

[KizuyaKatogami]

Like WoW, there is a minority of a minority here on the forums that believes it's their way or the highway. Unlike WoW, SE isn't caving into those ridiculous demands. Here's what was done at the behest of the forum goers in WoW that has completely tanked the game:

• Flying was removed from relevant endgame areas.
• Rewards for max-level Normal and Heroic Dungeons were nerfed to the point where they're not even as good as the MSQ-equivalent rewards.
• Leveling was reduced from a multi-month joyride for the average player to a 26-hour borefest.
• The currency vendors were removed for everyone except Mythic players.
• The endgame dungeons that drop relevant gear are no longer available via the dungeon finder (WoW's version of the Roulette)
• Crafting is completely worthless for anyone who is not willing to play the game 24/7 in the first few weeks of a given content drop.

Sorry, but revamping the talent system to make it easier to balance classes doesn't even make the list of my grievances against that game. FFXIV has always worked the same way in that regard, too. When you play a job, you play that job with the skills you're given. Am I sad that instead of worrying bout 18 buttons on my Samurai I now only have 17? Not really. I'm more bummed about the cool animation going away, but it doesn't completely destroy the class the way so many seem be suggesting.

Tell this to the healer mains in the healer megathread. Lets see how they feel about your comments lol. We played a job with the skills we were given, those skills were then ripped away from us with no choice and the role is a hollow shell of what it once was.

[Lauront]

WoW's problems were content and a myriad of other things, not "simplification." Ya'll also severely overestimate the outlook of the game based on the forums which is a minority of the minority of the playerbase.

Then it'd be grand to get more information on what they're basing their decisions, to see what the general sentiment is, as Theodric requested here.

[WaxSw]

having to press 500 different buttons during combat does not make the game fun

Pressing 2 doesn't either and thats what healers have been getting for the last years no matter how much we ask for more
What is undeniable is that more buttons=more skills and more skills usually lead to a more involved gameplay with more depth in its learning and optimization

WoW's problems were content and a myriad of other things, not "simplification." Ya'll also severely overestimate the outlook of the game based on the forums which is a minority of the minority of the playerbase.

Precisely content is something that is problematic too, every patch bring less and less and jokingly the last expansion for many was called "shallowbringers", endgame rn is really lacking in content and stuff to do and unless you do ultimates it looks like this state will remain as such for the next 4 months. At this point the whole "The game respects my time" arguments and "Yoshi-P says its ok to unsub and do other stuff" looks more like an excuse than anything else, yes we may unsub but not because of burnout but because as much as we want to play there is nothing to do.

Also kinda funny how you all bring the "minority argument", ever heard of a tiny concept called "sample"? because thats what these forums are, they try to be the widest sample the devs have to know their audience second to the game data they have, ignoring it because "they are a minority" its a decision as stupid as not having forums in 1.0 and would go against their "a complaint is worth twice a compliment" and "the silent are always the first to leave" philosphy to create ARR. Besides its not only these forums, reddit, youtube and other social media are complaining too, at this point we have more voices complaining about this since I can remember

[Rhysati]

WoW's problems were content and a myriad of other things, not "simplification." Ya'll also severely overestimate the outlook of the game based on the forums which is a minority of the minority of the playerbase.

For me, the exact reason I quit playing WoW is the simplification and homogenization of classes. I play on private servers now in old expansions where my class actually has an identity and things they bring to the table that other classes do not. I also play other older MMORPGs like City of Heroes and Everquest p1999 for that exact same reason.

If I wasn't an active roleplayer here I wouldn't play FFXIV any longer for the exact same reason. Every class feels the same so it really doesn't matter which one I play anymore.

[Sqwall]

For me, the exact reason I quit playing WoW is the simplification and homogenization of classes. I play on private servers now in old expansions where my class actually has an identity and things they bring to the table that other classes do not. I also play other older MMORPGs like City of Heroes and Everquest p1999 for that exact same reason.

If I wasn't an active roleplayer here I wouldn't play FFXIV any longer for the exact same reason. Every class feels the same so it really doesn't matter which one I play anymore.

So you play at a time when it was.....simpler? I'm confused as to why you go back to old expansions where you didn't have as much skills. Don't get me wrong...I enjoy the classics just as much as anyone else, but the simple fact that the developers of FFXIV understand that the game feels a tad....complicated when it comes to controller players places the blame on those people. I shouldn't have to start using a M/K because the game demands it, which it doesn't, the meta community does i.e. ultimate, savage. The fact that I can play this game from my couch and still clear savage content is a testament to design of this game. Again don't get me wrong there are some things that I detest to savage, enrage comes to mind and I think enrage timers are incredibly lackluster to mechanics, but hey that's me.

Reducing button bloat IS NOT a red flag of simplifying a game. It's removing frustration of some jobs that just really have WAY to many buttons. I actually have to remove ALL my AOE buttons when I raid just so I can have everything on my main X-hotbar with out using to much switching or fumbling around.

Those that play on M/K as an Astro should BOW to those Astro's that play on controller. ESPECISALLY in P4S during Pinax....

The current method of adding buttons to jobs should be forgotten and replaced with TRAITS upgrading skills. It's simpler and you can still create new and interesting dynamics. Dragoon comes to mind with all the changes made for 60-80 you get maybe 1 actual ability/skill. Everything else is traited...which still changes how the job plays. Atonement on Paladin also comes to mind....trait that crap and change Royal Authority to atonement on completion. Currently Atonement is on the GCD anyway so it only makes sense.