What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[Theodric]

Having the only losses of consequences apply to the antagonists or minor characters who show up only to die a few seconds or minutes later has been a common complaint ever since the days of ARR and HW came to a close. Back then, there was a healthy balance between victories and losses for both the protagonists and antagonists alike.

WoW also proves that extensive use of phasing technology can be used to change and update the game world to reflect player progress and that's a much older game. It may have gone overboard at times with too much death and destruction at times but it's not like FFXIV needs to follow such a path to the same extent.

Besides, as the development team is all tooe ager to tell us they wish for FFXIV to be similar to a single player game on many fronts - at least where the MSQ's are concerned.

[CrownySuccubus]

WoW also proves that extensive use of phasing technology can be used to change and update the game world to reflect player progress and that's a much older game. It may have gone overboard at times with too much death and destruction at times but it's not like FFXIV needs to follow such a path to the same extent.

Isn't this a common complaint of the game as well? The fact that certain aspects of the setting were permanently altered is specifically what led to the demand for, and release of, WOW Classic.

[Theodric]

Isn't this a common complaint of the game as well? The fact that certain aspects of the setting were permanently altered is specifically what led to the demand for, and release of, WOW Classic.

It was the degree in which the game world was altered that brought about complaints, as well as weird favouritism on the part of the development team. A factor which is all too similar when it comes to FFXIV and the way in which certain characters are handled compared to their brethren.

I daresay the fact that not a single leader figure has stepped down and been replaced where the protagonists are concerned is cause for concern. FFXIV maintains a bizarrely stale status quo at almost every turn - when given the medium it should be seeking to appease a broader range of personal tastes.

[KizuyaKatogami]

I already said this. VI and VII are the darkest the mainline series has ever gotten, though FFXV comes damn close.





It....doesn't? The Garleans almost go completely extinct in Endwalker alone.

Throughout the rest of FFXIV proper, the last of the Ancients goes extinct, the dragons are heavily endangered, with few of the First Brood remaining, Thavnair loses an unspecified number of its people, countless races on The First are extinct or barely hanging on by a thread (I guess we can count that as happening in the game itself, since the Flood of Light was an HW event), and I'm sure I'm forgetting a lot of stuff. (EDIT: Yeah, like the Umbral Calamity that literally changed the entire world -- the entire impetus between 1.0 and 2.0.)

But, for the long answer, FFXIV being a live service games makes it practically impossible for there to be heavy, long-term consequences to the world at large. The basic framework of the setting needs to be the same for new players as well as people who've completed the latest patch. Would be kinda awesomely tragic if you couldn't, say, pick Roegadyn anymore after some event in the game made them basically extinct as a species, but it would also be horribly unfair.

So…you’re just saying what many people in here have a problem with. Consequences only occur for the antagonists and nameless npcs. The main cast is perfectly fine and the world is perfectly fine. Whereas in other ff games the world is either destroyed or devastated, characters actually have consequences tied to their actions, etc etc.

[CrownySuccubus]

Consequences only occur for the antagonists and nameless npcs. The main cast is perfectly fine and the world is perfectly fine. Whereas in other ff games the world is either destroyed or devastated, characters actually have consequences tied to their actions, etc etc.

What I'm saying is that, of the fifteen mainline Final Fantasy games, the above statement is true for the vast majority. I would have to personally rank FFXIV maybe, sixth in terms of lasting negative consequences for the main characters or world. Maybe seventh or eighth if we're including Tactics.

[Rulakir]

This argument only really applies to Endwalker specifically, which isn't really a fair comparison.

Not really, I've felt this way since SB. Going around listening to the stories of the people of Doma and Ala Mhigo I thought, wow, we haven't gone through much by comparison.

- Thancred was plucked off the street by Louisoix and led a privileged life after that point with the only major loss he's suffered being Minfilia who, IMO, he has an unhealthy fixation on and I'll leave it there lest I fly into a rant. :P He has a slight handicap of losing his ability to wield aether, which fundamentally makes him no different than a Garlean and hasn't had much of an effect other than a moderate inconvenience.
- The only 'bad' thing that's happened to Y'shtola is she lost her normal vision, which was replaced by a superpower aetheric vision.
- Urianger lost Moenbryda and, fortunately, wasn't as obsessed with her as Thancred was with Minfilia. >_>
- Alphinaud got cut down to size by the Crystal Braves and lost Ysayle.
- Alisaie lost Tesleen which, while traumatic, was still a side character we only knew for about 15 minutes.

Estinien and G'raha (more specifically the Crystal Exarch) are exempt, they're the only two Scions who've been through Hell and back. The rest of them, considering they've gone through multiple wars and world ending threats, have been incredibly lucky. I'd wager the average Ul'dahn refugee has been through more and compared to the antagonists it's just a joke.

We're probably just going to have to agree to disagree on this. I've lost more people in my life than most of the Scions have, so when it comes to suffering and despair I don't personally find them compelling. I'd gladly trade with any of them minus the two exceptions, they've all had it rather good. The characters who have broken my heart who I can't imagine everything they've been through have all been antagonists.

[CrownySuccubus]

Not really, I've felt this way since SB. Going around listening to the stories of the people of Doma and Ala Mhigo I thought, wow, we haven't gone through much by comparison.

- Thancred was plucked off the street by Louisoix and led a privileged life after that point with the only major loss he's suffered being Minfilia who, IMO, he has an unhealthy fixation on and I'll leave it there lest I fly into a rant. :P He has a slight handicap of losing his ability to wield aether, which fundamentally makes him no different than a Garlean and hasn't had much of an effect other than a moderate inconvenience.
- The only 'bad' thing that's happened to Y'shtola is she lost her normal vision, which was replaced by a superpower aetheric vision.
- Urianger lost Moenbryda and, fortunately, wasn't as obsessed with her as Thancred was with Minfilia. >_>
- Alphinaud got cut down to size by the Crystal Braves and lost Ysayle.
- Alisaie lost Tesleen which, while traumatic, was still a side character we only knew for about 15 minutes.

You've actually got a point on this one.

This problem runs parallel to my criticism that most of the Scions are Sharlayan. One of the cardinal sins they teach you to avoid in Writing 101 is to avoid ruining the diversity of your setting or characters by having too many identical threads tied to them. They were born in one of the most peaceful, enlightened areas of the world and didn't know any real hardship until they encountered it during their adventures. And they're unlikely to suffer anything as devastating as the people of Doma or Ala Mhigo, because that was basically the entire point of that expansion: to reveal how cruel Garlean occupation was and criticize the heroes for basically ignoring it up until that moment.

[Skyborne]

Yes, protags coming out more or less unscathed was tolerated and forgiven more in these other games because they had some sort of development and were varied and diverse (in thoughts and in appearance/background) and were not generally all white-haired nerds all from the same city with silver spoons in their mouth (thank you, mommy Ameliance). And they had disagreements or chafed against each other, sometimes. The closest we have here are the twins doing the classic sibling teasing, or Urianger going behind everyone's backs to LARP because uhh... he just wants to, okay. And I know there are people outside this thread who have expressed boredom with the Scions.

I'm just holding out hope about what Yoshida said about a new character appearing in 6.1. If there's a more interesting new cast and some intrigue, and also some Ancient fanservice junkfood sprinkled in (that isn't just a certain dead horse) even if it's just ruins or whatever...

[Theodric]

If we're getting diversity than I'd rather it take the form of diversity of thought, opinions and allegiance. FFVII and FFXII are great in that regard since at times you're opposed to Shinra/Archades and at other points you're working alongside them for the sake of mutual benefit. FFXIV could easily do as much and it'd interest me far more than the constant whining about 'oppression' in the MSQ's that is often taken out of context.

For starters, Doma, Bozja and Ala Mhigo were treated more harshly than other provinces as a consequence of sparking uprisings. How convenient that the Ancients and Garleans have to 'move on' when they lose their homelands but even decades later conquered provinces have to be cut loose despite many Eorzean nations benefitting from occupied territory themselves.

I would have liked to have seen Garlemald follow a similar trajectory to the Archadian Empire in FFXII and undergo reform without losing its status as an Empire. The prospect of every single nation our character visits ending up as part of a globalist organisation that exists to push a very narrow set of values with minimal conflict doesn't really appeal to me much, in all honesty. Rivalries, territorial disputes and political intrigue are much more to my liking in what is meant to be a fairly mature setting.

Sure, they can throw in a Raen or a Roegadyn or whatever as part of the main cast for 'diversity' but if they just end up agreeing with the Scions on everything then we're back to square one.

[Lauront]

I hope they'll tap into the Populares strain of thinking somewhat for how Garlemald progresses in the future. Maxima is still around, after all. The end result of that could be something like Archades.