What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[FrightfulNight]

I know I haven't commented on it as I have been focused on other topics (mainly my disappointment at them gutting a Garlemald expansion something many people have wanted for a while) but with my opinion on the Hydalyn/Zodiark debate is that they should have just gone with what was hinted at back in 5.2 and have it be that Azem was possibly looking in to dealing with the Final Days at its source or looking for a better solution hence why they remained neutral.

Have it be that they wanted to avoid any more bloodshed and saw neither option as truly solving the problem or sustainable in the long run as well (as well as having to choose between siding between their best friend or mentor) and so they began to look at the problem at its source. I would change Elpis to a memory sequence. This way there is no disastrous implementation of time travel and no Venat having knowledge of future events. Elidibus simply uses his power in the Crystal Tower to access memories that are burned into the soul or possibly use the Azem Cyrstal that Emet-Selch made in secret that may contain memories that are only accessible by Azem or more specifically their current incarnation. Have it be that Azem found out about what was causing the final days but before they could act on that data the battle between Hydalyn and Zodiark started and the sundering occurred. Now the player uses this knowledge to deal with what is causing the final days at its source.

There you go, no timey-whiney shenanigans, no Venat knowing key information and choosing not to act, the Hydalyn and Zodiark conflict is kept morally grey with no right or wrong answer. Oh and maybe just have it that the Metion came in contact with the Endsinger instead of being it and instead have the Endinger be a being similar to Nyx from Persona 3. This way the final boss is as everyone said more of this lovecraftian concept instead of a kawaii bird girl from Etheryies. Metion could instead be used by Azem to track the Endsinger to its source and now is used by the WoL to do the same.

And of course this goes without saying that this would be 7.0 so 6.0 can be the Garlemlad expansion and better wrap up loose ends.

[EgilTheStressedMage]

Also where was Tiamat this entire time? Like every time I came back to Azya Lla for whatever whether for gathering mats for glowys I still wanted or for hunts, I made sure to fly by where she was and wonder if she'd ever be free. Come 5.5 and that finally happens and all we get is a helper in the wet fart of a final expansion dungeon Paglth'an. She's absolutely nowhere in Endwalker and is instead replaced by Vritra. Did I miss something?

[PawPaw]

I never took that speculation too seriously, because Fandaniel was just spitballing at the end of the day. What did strike me as a possibility was that Emet-Selch may have ferried over a specific soul to become his. Some people actually think it's fact that he was experimented on, but I think they're misreading what Elidibus and Varis were discussing, certainly supported by the fact that the FR version has Elidibus attribute his use as a test subject to Varis and not the Ascians - a more logical reading of that, IMO, is that Elidibus was referring to being able to observe the outcome of Zenos's self-experimentation using the Resonance following Aulus's dismissal from the imperial court. Even if Varis thought his son was a madman, Aulus's research could (and did) prove valuable to the Empire.

I never believed any of that "Emet-Selch experimented on Zenos" theorizing, but that wasn't a popular stance on reddit (shocker). I can't count the number of times I've seen that theory stated as pure fact. And the suppositions have almost entirely been based on Fandaniel's line of "Could Emet -Selch have found a way?". Elidibus' and Varis' conversation never meant anything other to me than what we already knew, that he experimented on himself regularly.

I assumed it was genetic because, just look at Solus' descendants; they're beyond massive. Zenos towers over most characters and Varis towers over him. And if, from reading Emet-Selch's short story, I can deduce that Varis is barely a shadow of his own father in stature then I can only imagine how abnormally large that first son must have been. With Solus musing that he and his wife were completely ordinary Garleans in terms of height and build, then I have to assume that freakish height must be genetic somehow. And if that could be passed down, they why couldn't other things?

Basically, I took Fandaniel's like to mean "Hmmm, Emet-Selch had sex and created hybrids in the process?!"

[CrownySuccubus]

I'm surprised no one has said anything about FFVIII considering the entire concept of time gets compressed into a moment which in effect killed reality itself.

Why does FFX never get mentioned? The entire game revolved around the "spiral of death". It was a beautiful world and lovely story, but everyone and everything in it was tied to tragedy.

Because at the time, we were talking about the tone of the games, not the themes. Their themes aside, the tones of FFVIII and FFX were very cheerful and optimistic with a nugget of dread. FFVI and FFVII were the exact opposite -- very dark and depressing, with a slightly hopeful message buried underneath. FFVI and FFVII were the flat out darkest the FF series got until FFXV.

While we're on the subject, FFIX was another anomaly; despite its very cartoonish, chibi-cute art direction, that game's themes were dark and depressing as hell. Parental abuse, genocide, betrayal, revenge, suicide, the inevitability of death, loneliness, bigotry, etc, etc.. It had a very cheerful tone on the surface, but when you look at what the story's actually saying, it's one of the darker themes in the series.

[PawPaw]

I know I haven't commented on it as I have been focused on other topics (mainly my disappointment at them gutting a Garlemald expansion something many people have wanted for a while) but with my opinion on the Hydalyn/Zodiark debate is that they should have just gone with what was hinted at back in 5.2 and have it be that Azem was possibly looking in to dealing with the Final Days at its source or looking for a better solution hence why they remained neutral.

Have it be that they wanted to avoid any more bloodshed and saw neither option as truly solving the problem or sustainable in the long run as well (as well as having to choose between siding between their best friend or mentor) and so they began to look at the problem at its source. I would change Elpis to a memory sequence. This way there is no disastrous implementation of time travel and no Venat having knowledge of future events. Elidibus simply uses his power in the Crystal Tower to access memories that are burned into the soul or possibly use the Azem Cyrstal that Emet-Selch made in secret that may contain memories that are only accessible by Azem or more specifically their current incarnation. Have it be that Azem found out about what was causing the final days but before they could act on that data the battle between Hydalyn and Zodiark started and the sundering occurred. Now the player uses this knowledge to deal with what is causing the final days at its source.

There you go, no timey-whiney shenanigans, no Venat knowing key information and choosing not to act, the Hydalyn and Zodiark conflict is kept morally grey with no right or wrong answer. Oh and maybe just have it that the Metion came in contact with the Endsinger instead of being it and instead have the Endinger be a being similar to Nyx from Persona 3. This way the final boss is as everyone said more of this lovecraftian concept instead of a kawaii bird girl from Etheryies. Metion could instead be used by Azem to track the Endsinger to its source and now is used by the WoL to do the same.

And of course this goes without saying that this would be 7.0 so 6.0 can be the Garlemlad expansion and better wrap up loose ends.

I would have enjoyed this so much more than what we got. It would give me more of a reason to feel an actual connection to Azem as their own person, rather than them just being this mischievous, nebulous being who is a tall clone of my character instead; Down to thinking processes and personality. Making them an active part of the story of the Final Days and having us work "together" across time would have gone a long way towards remedying that.

[Rulakir]

Because at the time, we were talking about the tone of the games, not the themes.

Oh, I don't need nor am I particularly interested in "dark and depressing", at least not outside of where it's appropriate. I just want a diverse cast of characters who aren't clad in impenetrable plot armor. I've seen several of us EW critics say that HW is the level of what we'd like. Given that we've already had that within FFXIV it doesn't seem too much to ask.

[Lauront]

I never believed any of that "Emet-Selch experimented on Zenos" theorizing, but that wasn't a popular stance on reddit (shocker). I can't count the number of times I've seen that theory stated as pure fact. And the suppositions have almost entirely been based on Fandaniel's line of "Could Emet -Selch have found a way?". Elidibus' and Varis' conversation never meant anything other to me than what we already knew, that he experimented on himself regularly.

I assumed it was genetic because, just look at Solus' descendants; they're beyond massive. Zenos towers over most characters and Varis towers over him. And if, from reading Emet-Selch's short story, I can deduce that Varis is barely a shadow of his own father in stature then I can only imagine how abnormally large that first son must have been. With Solus musing that he and his wife were completely ordinary Garleans in terms of height and build, then I have to assume that freakish height must be genetic somehow. And if that could be passed down, they why couldn't other things?

Basically, I took Fandaniel's like to mean "Hmmm, Emet-Selch had sex and created hybrids in the process?!"

I've seen it happen quite a few times on there - you get wild theories that outgrow any basis they have in the lore, and I wouldn't mind it, because speculation is all good fun, if people actually acknowledged that what they're doing is speculating. But instead they take it as established fact and tend to get mad if someone points out contradictory lore to what they're claiming.

Zenos's backstory made it out that he'd even risk injuring himself greatly to wield aether, and given how much of an affinity Emet-Selch had to that, it must've passed down to him as some kind of urge in need of an outlet.

*snip*

The Azem thing you mention is something a lot of us were expecting may be the case. I honestly would've liked this kind of scenario better.

[CrownySuccubus]

Oh, I don't need nor am I particularly interested in "dark and depressing", at least not outside of where it's appropriate. I just want a diverse cast of characters who aren't clad in impenetrable plot armor. I've seen several of us EW critics say that HW is the level of what we'd like. Given that we've already had that within FFXIV it doesn't seem too much to ask.

Okay, but that doesn't really mesh with FFX, which is what you brought up. The main cast of FFX was clad in adamantium plot armor.

SPOILERS!!!
'


Even of the two main characters who actually make a sacrifice, it 1) happens during the ending of the game, 2) one of them was dead already, and 3) the other has an optional resurrection in the sequel. Beyond that, every single character go through the entire game pretty much unscathed. Even Yuna, who suffers devastating heartbreak, is basically fine (especially in the sequel, and especially if you choose to resurrect her boyfriend).

[Theodric]

The single player games are largely a one and done affair, with some exceptions...though most have had varying levels of dark themes during their narratives as well as major consequences and character development. FFXIV is in the unique position of being able to add new content whenever it so desires and yet the status quo is almost desperately kept intact no matter what - hence the desire from many for more actual grit to be present in the story.

It has a very bloated cast and could easily get rid of a handful of characters whilst still having many others to spare. As it stands, it feels more and more like it just wants to be a weird visual novel to appease the not insignificant amount of creeps who use this game as a Second Life style simulator to ERP with one another, inject real world politics into everything and just generally stand around in Limsa all day showing off their latest glamour as they imagine their self inserts dating the Scions.

[Rulakir]

I've seen it happen quite a few times on there - you get wild theories that outgrow any basis they have in the lore, and I wouldn't mind it, because speculation is all good fun, if people actually acknowledged that what they're doing is speculating. But instead they take it as established fact and tend to get mad if someone points out contradictory lore to what they're claiming.

Zodiark was nothing but a gaping maw demanding to be fed endless souls and the Ancients were going to sacrifice all life to his insatiable appetite! :P

Okay, but that doesn't really mesh with FFX, which is what you brought up. The main cast of FFX was clad in adamantium plot armor.

I'm not speaking only of deaths, in which case there were two of the main cast regardless of whether or not one could be undone with a lot of effort in a terribly written sequel. (The gameplay was fun though.) Much like LotR where only one member of the Fellowship died (permanently), but most of the others went through a lot. Meanwhile, I've got Thancred complaining about how he doesn't have a single scar to brag about at the end of all things. :P