Yoshi-P: "If you want more engaging content, go play Ultimate"

[technole]

He made that statement regarding the whole game not only E12s (fight that even at min ilv the most used Aetherflow action still was energy drain) which showed a complete lack of understanding of how Sch was played, we used ED because the heal filler spender (lustrate) was rarely worth it while Ruin2+ED was still a gain, the cd of the skills (45s and 30s) limited how much ED could actually be useful to heal, we could cheese AE heals with recitation and the rest of our kit was strong and cheap.

If he knew and really wanted us to use our Aetherflow to heal they should have made it dps neutral, because back then we had to pay a tax for weaving (outside biolysis and swift optimizations) and a tax for ED but I guess that to do that and not butcher Sch completely one must have knowledge past physick spam and that may be considered "too good".

Basically Scholar was in that whole "we need to plan these ED stacks for short movement". Meanwhile Astro had 1.5s slide for days. We all want to play what is optimal. In a sense they eventually got this part right ultimately the 1.5s for all, and with Sage.

Untangling damage gain from boxed-in heal resources is actually the way to go if they want to make things more challenging. Similar to the Toxicon example, these skills cannot be damage gain, they need to be neutral at-best. But also the content has to be tuned to kind of need it. Just like a tank buster, needs a cooldown. So pair up these cooldowns to more heal mechanics.

As for E12S, I think Lustrate or Excog was really only needed for that 2nd phase whoever in the party got bopped by Oracle for that buster because there was that heavy AoE after. In P1 likely the Excog on the double buster, or if you had to deal with Living Dead with an Astro. It was all party dependent.

[Deceptus]

YoshiP made his stance rather clear at the end of SHb and flat out said he preferred Scholars use Aetherflow for healing over damage, and that was why in the final balance patch they nerfed energy drain 50 potency and made Bio and Broil more potent. That design element is apparent with Toxicon.

And I, and many SCH's, would be perfectly fine with that if they simply removed Energy Drain's Aetherflow cost. Especially now that it doesn't have an MP gain component to it. Put it on a 20-30s CD, adjust damage accordingly.

[Minarisweet]

And I'm, and many SCH's, would be perfectly fine with that if they simply removed Energy Drain's Aetherflow cost. Especially now that it doesn't have an MP gain component to it. Put it on a 20-30s CD, adjust damage accordingly.

I'd rather they designed something fun to use than just the lame 100 potency ogcd than removing everything like they do.

[WaxSw]

snip

They didn't got that part right tho, the weaving changes while a nice qol reduced the job skill ceiling as double weaving lost its importance to be replaced by anything, ED granted Sch optimal ways to move further distances than ast while right now Sch, is altough mobile for short distances with the slidecast, less mobile to deal with longer stuff like mechanics as Ruin2+ED is no longer a gain. They didn't achieve anything to encourage Aetherflow either, previously non AE heals shared the weaving tax, the only difference was the ED tax, a tax that is still present and still keeps optimized Sch to use their Aetherflow heals as often, in fact if you look at top Sch clears rarely they use Aetherflow heals without recitation. Sage is more mobile but the current toxicon system is flawed in its generation

Toxicon-like skills can perfectly be a dps gain over the nuke as long as its generation/potential uses are properly done, the problem of toxicon precisely is that since its generated via gcd healing there is a cap of how much damage it can deal without becoming a dominant strategy (in this case 660 potency), but if given more potency than just "standard nuke but instant" and limited but dps neutral ways to generate it as long as potential uses are not lost (for which we have stuff the charges and the fact that toxicon can store up to 3 charges) we can have it being a dps gain over dosis without forcing dominant strategies while also lowering the oportunity cost of gcds. ED is more complicated to do it with the current Aetherflow without destroying Sch entirely

Mostly right about E12 the thing is that due to how many non AE resources Sch had to AoE heal the consumption of EDs from these wasn't that high, especially when most if not all the recitations would go into indom, and the tankbusters that actually required healing instead of just invuln and single target damage was infrequent enough that healing it with AE was rare. (I have some old logs where the ratio of ED-AoE AE heals-ST AE heals is like 23/13/1 in p1 and 25/12/2 for p2)

[WaxSw]

And I, and many SCH's, would be perfectly fine with that if they simply removed Energy Drain's Aetherflow cost. Especially now that it doesn't have an MP gain component to it. Put it on a 20-30s CD, adjust damage accordingly.

They would have to add something else to add depth/diferentiate from Sge tho, a proper removal of ED requires at least a soft rework of Aetherflow and I'm very doutbful they can pull that off

[IDontPetLalas]

Somehow, I don’t think his stance has changed since. Mostly, I’m just annoyed that it comes off as the developers want healers to do more healing—between comments like that and every new skill we get being some type of shiny healy button—but they continuously refuse to increase the amount of healing required because they want to cater to baby healers.

I don’t necessarily think dungeons need more healing, nor do I expect that to happen. If they want to make them faceroll, then fine. I can accept that with one caveat: that this same mentality really shouldn’t apply to higher tier content like Extremes, Savage, and Ultimate where these baby healers are not going to be as prevalent.


As a clarification, I don’t consider a healer that is new to Extremes or raiding in general a “baby healer”. If you’re going into high-end content, you should be expected to have an understanding of your job and some basic competency. That the idea healers in any content seem to lack both is what is causing the role to suffer for any healer that is halfway decent. The dev team really need to realize that they cannot—nor should they—apply their mentality that all healers will have a low skill to all types of content.

This mentality that it is perfectly fine to have unengaging , braid dead , not fun job design to a majority of the game content should die. There seems to be a correlation in some people's minds that casual equals infantile , or people who never progress in their jobs.
This does not speak to many players who for whatever reason cannot or do not choose to opt into Extreme or higher content but still understand and care about job design. they do read their tooltips, they aren't curebots, they do use their mitigation, they don't necessarily have the best rotation but they do contribute to their parties.

Thus yes, i would agree as you say, with the modification -whoever is involved in job design should not apply a mentality that all of any job has a low skill level at any content level after their jobstone - so after level 30. that may not be the best way to make that judgement, however the design team should be able to assume that some basic skills have been learned at that point.

[ASkellington]

This mentality that it is perfectly fine to have unengaging , braid dead , not fun job design to a majority of the game content should die. There seems to be a correlation in some people's minds that casual equals infantile , or people who never progress in their jobs.
This does not speak to many players who for whatever reason cannot or do not choose to opt into Extreme or higher content but still understand and care about job design. they do read their tooltips, they aren't curebots, they do use their mitigation, they don't necessarily have the best rotation but they do contribute to their parties.

Thus yes, i would agree as you say, with the modification -whoever is involved in job design should not apply a mentality that all of any job has a low skill level at any content level after their jobstone - so after level 30. that may not be the best way to make that judgement, however the design team should be able to assume that some basic skills have been learned at that point.

They should make all levels of content more engaging for healer instead of Dosis/Malefic/Glare/Broil spam for 80+ levels.

However, HyoMinPark is correct that while dungeons do not have to have engaging healing, EX and Savage most certainly should, do not currently and that should be addressed and fixed.

[GrimGale]

I keep hearing the argument that "More DPS buttons" equals necessarily more complexity, since it would make Healers have to devote certain amount of attention to their rotation and that would detract from the attention that they would pay to the health bars, therefore, asking for "More DPS buttons" means necessarily that "Casuals" would have a harder time playing healers and such would limit the accessibility to the role.

But then, I also hear that "Healer DPS is optional" or at least that "Healers should prioritize healing first then dpsing second."

So in my mind, that means that no amount of healer DPS buttons can affect the role of a healer, since, if you follow the two last premises, Healers aren't really forced to interact with the DPS parts of their kits to actually heal. In that sense, having more DPS buttons would not affect the accessibility to the role at all.

[HyoMinPark]

This mentality that it is perfectly fine to have unengaging , braid dead , not fun job design to a majority of the game content should die. There seems to be a correlation in some people's minds that casual equals infantile , or people who never progress in their jobs.
This does not speak to many players who for whatever reason cannot or do not choose to opt into Extreme or higher content but still understand and care about job design. they do read their tooltips, they aren't curebots, they do use their mitigation, they don't necessarily have the best rotation but they do contribute to their parties.

Thus yes, i would agree as you say, with the modification -whoever is involved in job design should not apply a mentality that all of any job has a low skill level at any content level after their jobstone - so after level 30. that may not be the best way to make that judgement, however the design team should be able to assume that some basic skills have been learned at that point.

I don’t disagree with what you’re saying. Merely, I am either realistic enough or jaded enough to realize that this will never apply to all content. Regardless of how much I want it. The recent interview dictating that an Extreme-cleared tier healer was “too good” to be used in content testing that they were subsequently replaced. Presumably one that could cater to the developers vision of dumbed down “casual” content.

If I must make a concession—as reluctant as it must be—then I would sacrifice engagement in dungeon should I get more in higher tier content. Which, in all honesty, higher tier content should already have the engagement that I’m asking for. That it doesn’t is unacceptable. While accessibility has its perks, and isn’t inherently wrong—but it should not come at the cost of engagement and outright fun when it comes to playing a job.

[technole]

And I, and many SCH's, would be perfectly fine with that if they simply removed Energy Drain's Aetherflow cost. Especially now that it doesn't have an MP gain component to it. Put it on a 20-30s CD, adjust damage accordingly.

I'd rather they designed something fun to use than just the lame 100 potency ogcd than removing everything like they do.

That's really it, they need to remove ED and box-in the skill, rather than taking up a healing stack. The ED nerf was more of trying to put a square peg in a round hole but I get the intent. They can even "remove" Aetherflow and technically just redress up the stack mechanic to only be healing if they want to brand it that way.

Now some will say then you have Sage, well not exactly. New stack mechanic could tie into the fairy, adding more options like if you use all X stacks in X amount of time she does something like party buff, or mitigation.