What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[CrownySuccubus]

that Venat had stopped the sacrifice to restore the world because she thought their people should learn to rebuild rather than wish everything back to the way it was. I didn't even know where to start. :P

Er...well, that is basically what she said.

Venat: "Let us not seek to forget this tragedy. Let us carry it in our hearts, that we may grow stronger and know true happiness."

Venat: "In spite of...or perhaps because of this, I choose to believe. In [mankind's] ability to find a way forward."

Venat's frustration with the post-FD Ancients was that they wanted to outright pretend that the Final Days never happened to go back to days when they "knew aught but bliss". She, however, wanted people to learn to grow strong and "know true happiness".

Basically, both Venat and those random Ancient sound like crazy people.

The argument that Etheirys was a "perfect paradise" where they knew nothing but happiness and bliss is stupid. We are literally told that a volcano exploded and people would have died if not for Azem. (In fact, hell, Azem's entire purpose was to be a wandering troubleshooter.) People lamented the deaths of family and friends when they happened prematurely. People disagreed and debated all the time. Those Ancients (whom we're meant to believe represent most of the non-Convocation populace) were crazy strawmen who wanted to...I dunno, live in The Matrix or some'ish...to make Venat's actions justified.

Because words can't describe how much I despise the "you can only know true happiness after you've suffered" argument.

[Kozh]

Okay, so listen. If I break your kneecaps right now and you lose the ability to walk, it's okay because it's not fundamental "to your being". After all, you were born crawling, so if I remove the use of your legs, you should be able to get by just fine crawling under your own again.

Lol for some reason all these talks about whether the sundering is genocide or not somehow reminds me of "First Aid" episode of The Office.

"No arms or legs, do we bother resuscitating them? What kind of quality life do we have there?"

*obviously, this is just a joke. Pls don't take it seriously.

And then there's Hades's stone mentioning "malformed" creatures, which everyone thought was the player races. The life that Zodiark brought before the sundering. Which contradicts Yoshida saying the races developed after the sundering.

I used to think the same. That's why I once asked (not sure if in this thread or at lore forum) if the "new life seeded by zodiark" plays a role in why they wanted to do the third sacrifice.

That aside, I guess my biggest disappointment with sundering is I don't get to truly see the events shortly after it happened. I'm more curious about history and world building rather than seeing venat preaching the players again. I want to see if they lost all their memories or was it just a select few (and the rest were gone simply due to time and mortality). Supposedly they didn't loose all their memories, would they still recognize elidibus, emet, and lahabrea? I want to see how the first generation of the sundered rebuilt their life and society. Were they truly gone back to cavemen level of society and technology? How does 100% hyur like people evolve into different races (honestly though, it's hard to believe a hyur evolve into, say, lalafell)?

[Rulakir]

Er...well, that is basically what she said.

No, I mean the actual restoration of the world, i.e. the second sacrifice. The person was arguing despite what Hythlodaeus said in ShB (and apparently despite us seeing the world ablaze in the Amaurot dungeon) that the world wasn't beyond salvaging, saying that since we've overcome calamities they could overcome the destruction brought by the Final Days. They were taking the post-Elpis cutscene literally, with the Final Days still occurring in the background, that Venat had stopped them from returning the world to the way it was.

[CrownySuccubus]

How does 100% hyur like people evolve into different races (honestly though, it's hard to believe a hyur evolve into, say, lalafell)?

If you think that's difficult, try imagining the Ancients evolving into Sylphs, Ananta, Vanu Vanu and other beast tribes.

Remember, it's been established that the only real difference between beast tribes and the main races is prejudice based on physical beauty. They were kicked out because the "spoken races" considered them aesthetically unattractive or otherwise revolting. Most members of so-called "beast races", if they are raised or socialize with, the regular cityfolk, are basically indistinguishable. So that basically means, they're likely descendants of Ancients as well.

Imagine being an Ancient and waking up one day in a Namazu's body. (Granted, it's unknown if this actually happens. Every Ascian or reincarnated Ascian we've seen thus far have been Hyur, with the one exception being Amon, who was Elezen.)

EDIT: Although, EW also seemed to be hinting that the Allagans may have created some beast tribes. One of their scientists was hysterical about the fact that Amon had given some random test subject the head of an elephant (possible origin of the Matanga).

No, I mean the actual restoration of the world, i.e. the second sacrifice. The person was arguing despite what Hythlodaeus said in ShB (and apparently despite us seeing the world ablaze in the Amaurot dungeon) that the world wasn't beyond salvaging, saying that since we've overcome calamities they could overcome the destruction brought by the Final Days. They were taking the post-Elpis cutscene literally, with the Final Days still occurring in the background, that Venat had stopped them from returning the world to the way it was.

Oh okay. Your confusion makes a lot more sense with that clarification.

[Brinne]

EDIT: Although, EW also seemed to be hinting that the Allagans may have created some beast tribes. One of their scientists was hysterical about the fact that Amon had given some random test subject the head of an elephant (possible origin of the Matanga).

It is confirmed canon that the Allagans created the Ixal, at least! Meanwhile, the Sahagin are apparently Echo-capable, so ???????

EDIT: Thinking about this further (for some reason), I think it's safe to say that at least generally, races/tribes that exist across the Shards are probably Sundered Ancients. Ones that are unique to a Shard, such as how the First had no Ixal, or the Source has no Amaro, probably have different origins, such as being familiars. Namazu were confirmed as existing in the First before the Flood, though, which would mean that it is likely that at least a few of the Elpis NPCs did, indeed, become delicious sushi.

[KizuyaKatogami]

It is confirmed canon that the Allagans created the Ixal, at least! Meanwhile, the Sahagin are apparently Echo-capable, so ???????

EDIT: Thinking about this further (for some reason), I think it's safe to say that at least generally, races/tribes that exist across the Shards are probably Sundered Ancients. Ones that are unique to a Shard, such as how the First had no Ixal, or the Source has no Amaro, probably have different origins, such as being familiars. Namazu were confirmed as existing in the First before the Flood, though, which would mean that it is likely that at least a few of the Elpis NPCs did, indeed, become delicious sushi.

How do we know they’re sundered ancients and not say, some of the sundered new life that sprouted after Zodiark restored life to the planet?

[Brinne]

How do we know they’re sundered ancients and not say, some of the sundered new life that sprouted after Zodiark restored life to the planet?

That's possible too! That's why I said "at least generally" since, again, the Sahagin are shown able to carry the ability explained as a sign of being a former Ancient soul.

I will certainly also take Emet-Selch being so conflicted over feeding the Namazu to Zodiark he misconstrued that as being the source of the Hydaelyn-Zodiark war. Either way is hilarious.

[KageTokage]

Until otherwise stated, I head canon that the more human-looking races are direct descendants of the Ancients, while the less human races (Including Hrothgar) were either created by the Ancients, Zodiark, or more recent post-sundering civilizations like the Allagans.

The Matanga and Lupin in particular are not so subtly hinted at being creations in a sidequest in Elpis and a note in Ktsis Hyperboreia respectively.

I was honestly half-expecting that the whole reason the sacrifices of the "new life" became such a point of contention was because it included the latter crowd between the implication that their gods like Ifrit were inspired by creations of the Ancients and the pro-Hydaelyn crowd desiring to "entrust the future to them" which wouldn't sound proper in reference to mere beasts. If that ends up actually being the case courtesy of some new lore from Myths of the Realm, that's about one of the only things that might make me feel a little better about the circumstances of the Sundering.

[Ixon]

Until otherwise stated, I head canon that the more human-looking races are direct descendants of the Ancients, while the less human races (Including Hrothgar) were either created by the Ancients, Zodiark, or more recent post-sundering civilizations like the Allagans.

The Matanga and Lupin in particular are not so subtly hinted at being creations in a sidequest in Elpis and a note in Ktsis Hyperboreia respectively.

I was honestly half-expecting that the whole reason the sacrifices of the "new life" became such a point of contention was because it included the latter crowd between the implication that their gods like Ifrit were inspired by creations of the Ancients and the pro-Hydaelyn crowd desiring to "entrust the future to them" which wouldn't sound proper in reference to mere beasts. If that ends up actually being the case courtesy of some new lore from Myths of the Realm, that's about one of the only things that might make me feel a little better about the circumstances of the Sundering.

It reminds me of the Aquaman movie. Where there was once one mighty civilization that after it's collapse split into the scattered civilizations of which some of their forms changed drastically. The Atlantis and Xebal stayed very human-like, while the residents of the Trench and Brine morphed into more beastlike creatures over time. Weird comparison, I know, but makes sense to me.

[Rulakir]

I don't like the way souls are handled. I don't like that they can be split apart, I don't like that they can be permanently destroyed, and I don't like that there's a question as to whether or not all humanoids have one.

Regardless, the third sacrifice being of theoretically soulless humanoids wouldn't make me think any differently of the sundering since that wasn't her reason for doing it. The issue with the third sacrifice seems to be more that it confirmed her belief that the Ancients wouldn't change, less so any moral dilemma with what they were planning to do. It makes me wonder if her 'opposition' was an attempt to force people onto a different path, which might've worked had they not written that the souls were trapped within Zodiark.

Hrothgar throw a wrench into everything, don't they? :P I preferred Varis' explanation of the sundering causing the creation of the different races over the evolution of them proposed by Yoshi-P in the LL, especially given the comparatively short time in which that evolution would've had to occur.