[D]iminished: What Jobs Could Be vs. What They're Becoming

[whitemoonflower]

Too many abilities are being watered down, misconstrued, or removed altogether. The core of each job and lore behind the abilities continue to be diminished for the sake of “button bloat” when there are other more practical/reasonable methods of addressing that issue. But that’s the thing: many like having buttons to press. They enjoy having options, variations, and room for a personalized experience.

As a SAM main, I was already disappointed at the loss of Third Eye’s prior function. I admittedly didn’t use Merciful Eyes often due to its small heal potency, but responding with Hissatsu: Seigan felt…nice, like a proper counter that suited katana combat. (I still consider how it would’ve played out if both were retained and Merciful Eyes became a small but present group heal, turning the SAM stereotypes on their heads.)

In my opinion, removing Hissatsu: Kaiten strips SAM of a large portion of its identity. It may not be integral to the job’s functionality, but it’s integral to the overall flow of the job. That, and people enjoy it. Why not combine Ikishoten with Ogi Namikiri and Kaeshi: Namikiri or the numerous other button reduction combinations people have suggested?

The current direction of job management reflects a lack of communication and understanding regarding the heart and soul of why Form Shift should result in a form instead of a formless state, why SCH isn’t SGE, why AST’s job class quests even mention Time-related abilities (Time Dilation having been removed), why every tank (let alone job) doesn’t have to be remodeled to be more like WAR because people play them for what they individually are.

This game is something special to me—a place where I’ve met dear people and made dear memories. I appreciate the people who've worked hard to see this game flourish, and I appreciate how the community has met those efforts with their own. Nothing about FFXIV should be watered down or diminished.

Thank you for reading. Please be safe & well.

[Minarisweet]

People don't care much about job flavor and it saddens me, they act like its impossible to have jobs with identity and viable.

[whitemoonflower]

People don't care much about job flavor and it saddens me, they act like its impossible to have jobs with identity and viable.

Exactly, and it’s completely doable if instead of honing in on the few who complain while leveling a job, they listen to the ones who main it and have dedicated more time to learning its intricacies.

[Lunalepsy]

Too many abilities are being watered down, misconstrued, or removed altogether. The core of each job and lore behind the abilities continue to be diminished for the sake of “button bloat” when there are other more practical/reasonable methods of addressing that issue. But that’s the thing: many like having buttons to press. They enjoy having options, variations, and room for a personalized experience.

As a SAM main, I was already disappointed at the loss of Third Eye’s prior function. I admittedly didn’t use Merciful Eyes often due to its small heal potency, but responding with Hissatsu: Seigan felt…nice, like a proper counter that suited katana combat. (I still consider how it would’ve played out if both were retained and Merciful Eyes became a small but present group heal, turning the SAM stereotypes on their heads.)

In my opinion, removing Hissatsu: Kaiten strips SAM of a large portion of its identity. It may not be integral to the job’s functionality, but it’s integral to the overall flow of the job. That, and people enjoy it. Why not combine Ikishoten with Ogi Namikiri and Kaeshi: Namikiri or the numerous other button reduction combinations people have suggested?

The current direction of job management reflects a lack of communication and understanding regarding the heart and soul of why Form Shift should result in a form instead of a formless state, why SCH isn’t SGE, why AST’s job class quests even mention Time-related abilities (Time Dilation having been removed), why every tank (let alone job) doesn’t have to be remodeled to be more like WAR because people play them for what they individually are.

This game is something special to me—a place where I’ve met dear people and made dear memories. I appreciate the people who've worked hard to see this game flourish, and I appreciate how the community has met those efforts with their own. Nothing about FFXIV should be watered down or diminished.

Thank you for reading. Please be safe & well.

Like I said in another thread: Homogeneity>Uniqueness. Everyone wants to be a hero nowadays, so everyone gets the same treatment.

[Xenon_S]

Here is a fun fact for Samurai's Kaiten

Reposting a shorter version of my main thread in DPS discussions

The reason cited in liveletter for Kaiten's removal is 操作量, quantity of operations, or action bloat. This can be examined with CPM

In 4.x, Samurai use Hagakure to eat Sen and spam more shinten, Kaiten is not action bloat since it was barely used.
In 5.x, standard 1 min rotation uses 4 Kaiten per min, no compaints to Kaiten being action bloat.
In 6.0, Meikyo charge adds 1 extra Kaiten on opener, and Ogi 1 extra kaiten every 2 mins.

In ShB E12S P1, top 3 SAM had CPM of 47.6, 47.8, and 47.1
In EW P4S P2, top 3 SAM had CPM of 46.1, 45.3, and 46.1

Top P4S P2 log had 33 cast of Kaiten on 6:43 kill, that's 4.9 CPM. That's equivalent to 660 Kenki or 26.4 Shiten Casts, which is 3.93 CPM. It is barely a change, and EW SAM already has lower CPM than ShB SAM, the action bloat arugment does not stand.

No Action Bloat = No need to remove Kaiten.

[whitemoonflower]

Here is a fun fact for Samurai's Kaiten

Reposting a shorter version of my main thread in DPS discussions

The reason cited in liveletter for Kaiten's removal is 操作量, quantity of operations, or action bloat. This can be examined with CPM

In 4.x, Samurai use Hagakure to eat Sen and spam more shinten, Kaiten is not action bloat since it was barely used.
In 5.x, standard 1 min rotation uses 4 Kaiten per min, no compaints to Kaiten being action bloat.
In 6.0, Meikyo charge adds 1 extra Kaiten on opener, and Ogi 1 extra kaiten every 2 mins.

In ShB E12S P1, top 3 SAM had CPM of 47.6, 47.8, and 47.1
In EW P4S P2, top 3 SAM had CPM of 46.1, 45.3, and 46.1

Top P4S P2 log had 33 cast of Kaiten on 6:43 kill, that's 4.9 CPM. That's equivalent to 660 Kenki or 26.4 Shiten Casts, which is 3.93 CPM. It is barely a change, and EW SAM already has lower CPM than ShB SAM, the action bloat arugment does not stand.

No Action Bloat = No need to remove Kaiten.

It never felt bloated or excessive but seamlessly flowed with the rest of the rotation. Looking at the info you’ve provided (and thank you for taking the time to break it down), the “action bloat” reasoning seems more like changing it for the sake of changing it vs. a beneficial adjustment.

[DixieBellOCE]

Kaiten is not button bloat, far from it.

It has a fluid spot in the rotation, and feels great to press.

What they need to do, is straight up just combine OTHER abilities into 1 button like PVP.

Why do you need 6 buttons for the 1-2-3/1-2-3/1-2 combos on samurai? Just make it 1-1-1/2-2-2/3-3, combine the combos into singular buttons and you immediatly save THREE bloats.

[whitemoonflower]

Kaiten is not button bloat, far from it.

It has a fluid spot in the rotation, and feels great to press.

What they need to do, is straight up just combine OTHER abilities into 1 button like PVP.

Why do you need 6 buttons for the 1-2-3/1-2-3/1-2 combos on samurai? Just make it 1-1-1/2-2-2/3-3, combine the combos into singular buttons and you immediatly save THREE bloats.

Combining those combos would be such a refreshing organizational upgrade. Completely agreed.

[Recon1o6]

Kaiten is not button bloat, far from it.

It has a fluid spot in the rotation, and feels great to press.

What they need to do, is straight up just combine OTHER abilities into 1 button like PVP.

Why do you need 6 buttons for the 1-2-3/1-2-3/1-2 combos on samurai? Just make it 1-1-1/2-2-2/3-3, combine the combos into singular buttons and you immediatly save THREE bloats.

because a lot of people don't like the pvp combo. The more you hit one button repeatedly the worse it gets. Look at healers. Yoshida hates healers so thats why they suffer that way.

A better way to save space would be what many players have been saying for years, get rid of the aoe variants of single target attacks and just have the latter upgrade to the former (eg upheaval upgrades to orogeny) and combine buttons that have no business being split in the first place like draw/play

[shao32]

DRK literally loss his gameplay flavour and identity for stuff like this in order of having literally no unique stuff and filled with just generic oGCD, I don't play SAM as much I use to be but I can even recognize how kaiten is just a great small part that makes SAM being SAM and it's so sad how they are so willing to remove it like that without thinking twice how would impact on the gameplay identity of the job again like they did just so many times already.

I hope saving Kaiten is just the first step to say stop to this horrible practice and the dev realice once for all how awfully is that way to "balance" the game, we lost so many already just no more.