Looking back at this Yoshi P statement(story spoilers)

[KizuyaKatogami]

Because her warning is a practical one rather than an emotional one. "Don't get any ideas about summoning us back or you'll be left floating in space without any solid ground or oxygen."

Once we resolve that issue, it's safe to bring them back. But we have to reach that point first, so their survival hinges on our success.

It's true that they are prepared to die to give us this chance to succeed, because there is no other way to save everyone on Etheirys, but that doesn't mean they want to be left dead when there is a way to bring them back. Nor should we (or at least our character) want to leave them dead.

Thats my point though, and the same goes for everything else in the game. But in regards to the scions, why is it that in the expansion dealing with loss and sacrifice they get off scot-free. They get to come back from "death." Theyre immune to despair. Now to be clear, i didnt think they were going to die in UT,it was painfully obvious they wouldnt, but thats why i find it funny when people try to act like killing a character off or giving them consequences is bad for the plot, but somehow the constant death baiting and fakeouts isnt. Its a prime example of a double standard, especially when it also contradicts the expansions themes. The main cast is exempt from it for this expansion and has been for quite some time now.

A bit unrelated but...that whole line of not wanting to be left dead when there is a way to bring them back. That sounds an awful lot like a certain group of Ancients doesnt it?

Evidently they have plans or else it would have ended with the characters dying. 6.1 hasn't happened yet, we'll find out then.

But anyone who went into UT thinking that the characters were going to die there one-by-one hasn't been paying attention. We were already told they weren't dead and were giving us the environment and paths forward. They also gave us a tool that returns everyone to the ship that tracked their aether and made sure to mention it multiple times, which is the original way I thought we were all going to come back. We were given the means to save them and had no need for UT after we were done, why would we just leave them there? And there's the fact that no expansion ends with killing off any off the main characters and I strongly doubted they had it in them to do it there. Did you seriously think that these developers would have ended the whole game's original arc with all of the main characters dead except for the WoL and ending on the note "well at least we saved the world"?

As for the twins' speech, it was the culmination of 10 years worth of character growth since both of them grew more than any other character.

Right, just as people have said they had plans for yshtola and thats why she didnt die in shb yet what did she do of substance again? Oh right very little, you could take her out of the story and nothing would change. My question is though, why even have yshtola bring it up in the first place? That line could not exist and nothing would change, so why bring it up if it amounts to nothing. Its no different than with you talking about Emet lol.

I wouldnt have minded if they ended the arc with that though, would have been a nice way of tying up that suffering is necessary, knowing of loss and sacrifice, and starting anew on a new adventure to honor those that had sacrificed themselves so that we may continue to walk the earth. Or even if one or two had died or had some permanent injuries/negative effects for doing so, at least we'd know the scions arent exempt from the final days. We can always say the writers may have plans for x y z, because as we know now they dont pre plan so much, they go with the flow. So in that case they could write around killing someone off just as easily as without.

[kpxmanifesto]

Did you seriously think that these developers would have ended the whole game's original arc with all of the main characters dead except for the WoL and ending on the note "well at least we saved the world"?

With the amount of fake death scenes in this game? No, of course not. Everybody who has played this game from start to finish knows the writers wouldn't dare do such a thing.

[kpxmanifesto]

But anyone who went into UT thinking that the characters were going to die there one-by-one hasn't been paying attention. We were already told they weren't dead and were giving us the environment and paths forward. They also gave us a tool that returns everyone to the ship that tracked their aether and made sure to mention it multiple times, which is the original way I thought we were all going to come back. We were given the means to save them and had no need for UT after we were done, why would we just leave them there? And there's the fact that no expansion ends with killing off any off the main characters and I strongly doubted they had it in them to do it there.

But then that begs the question. Why whisk away the rest of the scions in a cloud of black swirling smoke? Just so they could set up the cutscene where the WoL walks up the stairs by himself?

[Iscah]

But in regards to the scions, why is it that in the expansion dealing with loss and sacrifice they get off scot-free. They get to come back from "death." Theyre immune to despair.

Nobody can be "immune to despair" unless they don't have feelings in the first place.

It seems quite clear to me that the Scions refuse to let despair break them. That's not the same thing as not having the feelings in the first place.

They may not have physical scars from their journeys, but emotionally they've been through a lot. They've lost people close to them. They've spent years living with and trying to help people who are suffering, particularly during their unseen time in the First.

A bit unrelated but...that whole line of not wanting to be left dead when there is a way to bring them back. That sounds an awful lot like a certain group of Ancients doesnt it?

When you speak vaguely, I'm not sure what to address in response, and have to guess at what you're actually referring to.

If you're talking about the sacrifices to Zodiark, the only way to get those souls out was to sacrifice other lives in exchange. We still don't have a definitive answer of what those lives were going to be. And we certainly didn't have the ability to resurrect them ourselves at the point when Fandaniel destroyed Zodiark's core and caused them all to dissipate.

And if you're talking about Emet and Hyth... we brought them back, kind of, and they apparently refused to stick around.

Maybe they really couldn't stay and were just putting on a brave face about it, but also maybe we actually gave them a really important gift: a resurrection from their earlier unwilling deaths for the chance to judge their duty done and make a willing return to the star. That's a really powerful thing to give them, I think.

I don't see this as a division between misery for the antagonists and happiness for the protagonists. They've become co-protagonists now, and the core cast continues on while the supporting cast from a particular story arc gets a resolution that ends their role in the story.

[KizuyaKatogami]

Nobody can be "immune to despair" unless they don't have feelings in the first place.

It seems quite clear to me that the Scions refuse to let despair break them. That's not the same thing as not having the feelings in the first place.

They may not have physical scars from their journeys, but emotionally they've been through a lot. They've lost people close to them. They've spent years living with and trying to help people who are suffering, particularly during their unseen time in the First.




When you speak vaguely, I'm not sure what to address in response, and have to guess at what you're actually referring to.

If you're talking about the sacrifices to Zodiark, the only way to get those souls out was to sacrifice other lives in exchange. We still don't have a definitive answer of what those lives were going to be. And we certainly didn't have the ability to resurrect them ourselves at the point when Fandaniel destroyed Zodiark's core and caused them all to dissipate.

And if you're talking about Emet and Hyth... we brought them back, kind of, and they apparently refused to stick around.

Maybe they really couldn't stay and were just putting on a brave face about it, but also maybe we actually gave them a really important gift: a resurrection from their earlier unwilling deaths for the chance to judge their duty done and make a willing return to the star. That's a really powerful thing to give them, I think.

I don't see this as a division between misery for the antagonists and happiness for the protagonists. They've become co-protagonists now, and the core cast continues on while the supporting cast from a particular story arc gets a resolution that ends their role in the story.

But heres the thing, even in ShB we see some of the scions give in to despair, namely alisaie. You mean to tell me that none of them give in to it even once throughout the course of the final days? Add that to the perfect scions tally. Theres not really a mention of the emotional or mental scars though outside of Uriager with moenbryda in endwalker. The fact is, weve gone through two expansions now where the stakes are supposed to be the highest ever, and against the biggest threats ever faced, and theyve gotten out with 0 consequences whatsoever now in both situations. Im sorry, but i just cant take a story seriously if its going to make things absolutely one sided like that but then try to preach to me about suffering being necessary, and dealing with loss or sacrifices needing to be made. If the main cast doesnt need to adhere to it why should i? Especially when its minor npcs or entire groups of people(garleans) that have had to struggle far more and far longer than the priviliged scions have.

As far as the dead comment, i was talking about the souls in Zodiark yes and the adversity people had to the ancients wanting to restore their people. Bit of a tangent but i just found the comparison funny.

[Iscah]

But then that begs the question. Why whisk away the rest of the scions in a cloud of black swirling smoke? Just so they could set up the cutscene where the WoL walks up the stairs by himself?

Because they still needed to sacrifice themselves for us to reach that point where maybe we could bring them back.

It's a line to be drawn between what we can expect as the audience of a fictional story and what the characters are going through as living people. The others are willing to put their lives on the line in faith that you'll find an opportunity to bring them back, but that doesn't mean (if this is reality and not fiction) that there's a guarantee you'll be able to. If you fail, it's over for everyone.

Clearly some people here don't like those sorts of stakes presented unless the audience is equally unconfident at the character's chances of success, but I find it a powerful emotional thing regardless. Imagining how the character must be feeling in that moment, heavy-hearted, everything counting on them so they mustn't give in to despair, mustn't give up, must keep walking forward.

It doesn't matter that if you take a step back from the immediate action, you can see that of course it's going to be alright somehow. There and then, things are not alright and the immediate way forward is unclear.

[kpxmanifesto]

??

Read the comment of the person that I was responding to. The other person believes that the scions were never meant to die and that they were going to be back no matter what. Unfortunately, you cannot answer on his behalf without fully knowing the argument that he's presenting.

[Iscah]

But heres the thing, even in ShB we see some of the scions give in to despair, namely alisaie. You mean to tell me that none of them give in to it even once throughout the course of the final days? Add that to the perfect scions tally. Theres not really a mention of the emotional or mental scars though outside of Uriager with moenbryda in endwalker. The fact is, weve gone through two expansions now where the stakes are supposed to be the highest ever, and against the biggest threats ever faced, and theyve gotten out with 0 consequences whatsoever now in both situations.

No, they do not give in to despair. As far as I remember in Shadowbringers, Alisaie's reaction to Tesleen's death (I assume that's what you're talking about?) is not giving in. She's affected. She mourns. But she doesn't seize up and stop; she channels that sadness into resolve and is determined to fight so that nobody else suffers a similar fate.

And that's what I see in the story for all the Scions. They've been through the Seventh Calamity, seen the destruction in its aftermath, lost people they cared about, worked to rebuild their lives, undergone new struggles through the course of the story as we've seen it. G'raha has travelled from one world ruined by the Eighth Calamity to one nearly obliterated by the Flood, and seen uncountable things over a long life. I don't need to see them list off their past tragedies or undergo fresh suffering in every expansion to know that they've been through a lot.

Moenbryda might be the only death directly touched on, but we know there are so many more that affect one or many of the Scions. The group we have now is shaped by the previous deaths of some of their core members and longtime companions.

If you choose to overlook all this and stick to the insistence that they never suffer, then I really can't say anything to convince you otherwise, but I think it's clearly what the writers want you to see in the story. And if you reject it and don't see it as a valid plot point, then you are going to be permanently dissatisfied with every part of the presentation.

[KizuyaKatogami]

No, they do not give in to despair. As far as I remember in Shadowbringers, Alisaie's reaction to Tesleen's death (I assume that's what you're talking about?) is not giving in. She's affected. She mourns. But she doesn't seize up and stop; she channels that sadness into resolve and is determined to fight so that nobody else suffers a similar fate.

And that's what I see in the story for all the Scions. They've been through the Seventh Calamity, seen the destruction in its aftermath, lost people they cared about, worked to rebuild their lives, undergone new struggles through the course of the story as we've seen it. G'raha has travelled from one world ruined by the Eighth Calamity to one nearly obliterated by the Flood, and seen uncountable things over a long life. I don't need to see them list off their past tragedies or undergo fresh suffering in every expansion to know that they've been through a lot.

Moenbryda might be the only death directly touched on, but we know there are so many more that affect one or many of the Scions. The group we have now is shaped by the previous deaths of some of their core members and longtime companions.

If you choose to overlook all this and stick to the insistence that they never suffer, then I really can't say anything to convince you otherwise, but I think it's clearly what the writers want you to see in the story. And if you reject it and don't see it as a valid plot point, then you are going to be permanently dissatisfied with every part of the presentation.

Well its like yoshi p himself says, you cannot expect a story that deals with war and strife to not have losses on both sides. For about 6 years now, the story has been completely one sided. Yoshi P even admits this. Is just not realistic at all for the main cast to always come out on top with - scars and nothing to show for it. Death baiting and fakeout deaths dont help either.

As for Alisaie, i actually meant when she has her mental breakdown in Shb over the WoL. Dont remember the exact quote but something along the lines of "We searched high and low for an answer! And every one of us came up short!" She was losing it a bit at that point. It would have made the scions feel far more real had some of them actually almost gave in to their despair but had their allies to point them towards the right path. As it is right now they all feel extremely privileged compared to the other characters we see like Jullus or those garlean people we meet that the twins get killed. They suffered far more than any of the scions did and yet theyre going to try and preach it to me? Im sorry but i wont accept that. When nothing has happed for 6+ years and they keep having to show deaths from those 6+ years ago because nothing else substantial like that has happened for this long...its incredibly cringy and just outright sad.

[Iscah]

Well its like yoshi p himself says, you cannot expect a story that deals with war and strife to not have losses on both sides. For about 6 years now, the story has been completely one sided. Yoshi P even admits this. Is just not realistic at all for the main cast to always come out on top with - scars and nothing to show for it. Death baiting and fakeout deaths dont help either.

There are losses on both sides, even if it's not the specific heroes who die. I think they come out of it with a lot of emotional scars rather than physical ones.

I don't need to see the Scions die to be quite horrified by everything we see happen in Endwalker. Innocent people killed or turned into monsters, perhaps their very souls erased... it doesn't need to happen to a major character to drive me, and I think the same goes for the Scions themselves. They see other people suffer, and that is emotional suffering for them even if they come out of it physically unscathed.

And I just see it as a natural part of a narrative that characters will be in brief moments of peril and most of the time will get through it. I don't actually remember that many fake death moments. Are you comparing to teased deaths in trailers? I never watch trailers exactly because - across all media - they like to dramatically tease plot points that aren't really a big deal in the end. So maybe they don't compute as baiting to me anyway.

As for Alisaie, i actually meant when she has her mental breakdown in Shb over the WoL. Dont remember the exact quote but something along the lines of "We searched high and low for an answer! And every one of us came up short!" She was losing it a bit at that point. It would have made the scions feel far more real had some of them actually almost gave in to their despair but had their allies to point them towards the right path.

As I remember that, her outburst was frustration at Ryne making promises they had no way of keeping. Not really anything to do with despair, beyond that all of them were feeling like they'd exhausted all options for finding a cure.

As it is right now they all feel extremely privileged compared to the other characters we see like Jullus or those garlean people we meet that the twins get killed. They suffered far more than any of the scions did and yet theyre going to try and preach it to me? Im sorry but i wont accept that. When nothing has happed for 6+ years and they keep having to show deaths from those 6+ years ago because nothing else substantial like that has happened for this long...its incredibly cringy and just outright sad.

As I've already said, I don't see that balance of "one has suffered and the other has not". At this point Alphinaud has spent a year living in Kholusia and trying to help the people of Gatetown. Alisaie has been working at the Inn at Journey's Head, seen not only Tesleen's death but so many others. Both have been in hard places experiencing struggle. They've come out of it without physical wounds, but so has Jullus, and I don't see the point in weighing up one against the other.

Ultimately, they're the main characters of the story so far, and the finale is going to revolve around them.