A thought of inviduality to jobs

[IdowhatIwant]

The difference is I wouldn’t kick the rogue and you’re implying you would. So.I too am not bothered by it either

I wouldn't kick them because I would not let them in my party to begin with.

The first has diverse fights for which some classes are better than for certain parts and/or functions. Over a given period of gearing/progression, it's not uncommon that certain compositions would be favored for certain fights over others. However, the preferred compositions are far from stagnant; specific interest being made towards ensuring that (aside from the "meta" perhaps favoring adaptable but non-optimal comfort picks that are easier to coordinate in PuGs) a job most advantaged in any one fight of a tier is not most advantaged across that whole tier on average. Class depth, moreover, is sufficient that players can rarely switch from playing their few chosen classes to playing others at the highest level, meaning that there's an opportunity (learning) cost to swapping to the meta class for a given fight, with masters frequently changing what's considered most advantaged in a given fight anyways. Performance is highly varied with the given encounter, composition, and player skill, but a 'lower-performing' job --though still filling a vital function, and perhaps more reliably or responsively than an optimized choice-- can see easily see large (20-33%) differences in throughput

This is how the game used to be an I preferred it personally. Although there was always a meta every composition worked and there were synergies between classes which allowed you to bring different set ups. Problem was, Alex was a little tough for most groups meta or not.

[hagare]

But I’m not avoiding the question I told you what I would say, I just wouldn’t care if they just played rogue anyway.

disappointing. Yet predictable.
Oh well

[Shurrikhan]

This is how the game used to be an I preferred it personally. Although there was always a meta every composition worked and there were synergies between classes which allowed you to bring different set ups. Problem was, Alex was a little tough for most groups meta or not.

It follows my preference, too, but my point was more than larger but varied imbalances tend to equally or better allow for player choice as/than smaller but unvaried imbalances.

Some degree of imbalance is inevitable, but --given that-- having greater depth and diversity actually gives a greater chance, by sheer numbers, for some unique reason to take A --not necessarily over all other choices in the span of a whole fight, but as a way to meet particular shorter-term win conditions or form or press particular advantages.

In truly complex mechanics-driven (as opposed to "striking dummy" or "Patchwerk") fights, after all, having a unique or uniquely good answer to something not covered by others tends to be far more valuable than any fight-long performance variance that wouldn't make or break an enrage.

[Zaniel]

For all its many added layers of customization (specialization, race [with actual abilities], talents, covenant, conduits, trinket choice, legendary effects, etc.), and more diverse fights, the gap between an optimal and half-assed build or, say, the best and worst spec (despite those compounding differences due to layers of customization) is still only some quarter of performance there, compared to our sixth of performance here.

For how tightly that focus on balance, if we wish to consider the lack of any meaningful customization beyond job choice as such, constrains us, I'd expect that balance to be, well, tighter.

That's just not true, during many time periods the difference between best and worst spec in WoW has literally been 3:1. My full Lucid Dreaming wristband-Corruption-optimised Fire Mage in BFA was TRIPLING the DPS output of the gumby classes, not quite so bad in Shadowlands but there have always been plenty of completely worthless specs over time that no one who cares about being effective would bring to a fight and you would find yourself not being accepted to any dungeon or raid groups. Worst to best within role is what, 10% in FF14?

Besides this, spec-based design absorbs an enormous amount of dev time in tuning even if they DO get it right, time that would have to come from somewhere else. No thanks.

[DPZ2]

disappointing. Yet predictable.
Oh well

Yup. It's disappointing that you didn't provide an answer when you said you would.

[Ransu]

How about you go play a game without rpg elements when this is supposed to be an rpg and quit crapping up this one. Absolutely wild you’d ask for an mmo with no builds. Streamlining the rpg elements out to the point where they don’t exist. At this point go play ocarina of time or something.

This game has RPG elements. It just doesn't have the style you want. Go play those games and stop trying to change the style of game we enjoy.

[HisShadowX]

Now before you go on "there will be a meta" to this stop that thought, id rather there be a meta than being given no options, atleast with a meta i can decide to tell ppl to screw themself and build the way i want like in d2.


So my thought is simple let every class/job pick from the blue mage spells they learn, up to 3 abilitys to use. This would allow for the jobs to be intresting adding fun to all equally, and allow us to have some fun experimenting, and creating an invidual of said job than everyone being the same

We had this it was called the Cross Class System and it forced you to level other jobs and it only benefited the hardcore elitists or people who like everything to be hard as nails. As soon as they removed it subs went up.

I don't understand why you people want to come to other games and make them hard. They still have a game for you people and its call FF11 or Everquest.

[Seera1024]

there isnt a build variety at all though removing it completely you basicly done every player into a drone running on auto pilot with the job, hell anyone could essenitally make a bot with just a autokeying program with how they have it to clear stuff perfectly lol

plus *cough* they drasticly changed ast from its stormblood orgin and tbh same with bard

Where did I say there was build variety?

If you read my first post again you'll see that I said the is a correlation between a game's balance and a game's build variety.

The correlation being that the more variety there is with the builds the harder it is to balance. Meaning that there may be builds excluded from play at top levels due to differences in DPS/support abilities.

SE has apparently put a higher preference on balance than build variety.

The chances of that changing is slim.

The game's popularity is obviously not hurting so they must be doing things right.

A change in this aspect would be a drastic change.

Drastic changes are risky. You only do a risky change if your game is already hurting.

As this game is not hurting for players, I would suggest going to other games to scratch your buildcrafting itch.

[Padudu]

Still defaulting to "he" to anyone in 2022, assuming people are demanding anything and then changing wording from saying xiv does it better than other mmos to xiv progression is unique and good for the game itself... Yeah hard to have actual conversations with people like you.

lmao I knew this would be an entertaining read as soon as I saw who made the thread

are you really going to nitpick over someone using gendered pronouns when you're calling him a sheep because he likes how the game plays, smh. why even want cross skills lmao. We already have a problem with toolkits not being entirely utilized, you want more of the same problem? Because that is what will happen. But ok, give yourself the illusion of choice when in reality all that will happen is that a meta will be set and encouraged and you'll just be running the same 1-4 skills anyways

[Mikey_R]

I'm going to ask one important question, Does it matter?

You would pick a build and use it, because it is your favourite set to use, but are you really going to pay attention to the other job and notice that they are doing something different? Bear in mind, I'm not talking about balancing here, just visual effects. If you aren't going to notice that the other guy is using a different build to you, does it matter that you are both the same? You want something different not necessarily because of gameplay changes it would bring (which, going by the original post, 3 BLU spells is not going to do) you just want that feeling of being different to the other guy, when, in reality, noone would really notice it.

When you start taking into account all possibilities and trying to balance them all, it just becomes a logistical nightmare. Going back to choosing 3 BLU spells, there are currently 104 spells, which is only due to go up. If you wanted to choose 3 of the 104, there are 182,104 choices as an upper limit. Obviously, not all combinations will be good choices, there will be some redundancy in there as well. Even if we cull it down to 20 viable spells (picking that number out of nowhere), that is still 1140 possibilities, multiplied by 19 jobs, which is 21,660 different possibilities to balance. Or, you balance around 19 jobs and their fixed kits. I can even bring it down to a choice of 5 spells, which is 10 combinations or 190 possibilities over all jobs, which is still a really high number.

The reason WOW even has different specs is because, once you choose your class, you are stuck with it and cannot change it, so, if you want to go from a tank to a healer, you change the spec, then you have the talent trees, of which there is 1-2 viable options that outclass the other options and not by an insignificant amount. I will say, I am no expert on WOW, I have never played WOW so this is all from what I have heard via third party.

Now, FFXIV does not suffer this problem, you can change to any job at (almost) any time. You are not stuck with your initial class, so there is no need for specs. They then just cut out the options that allow suboptimal picks and prevent that from being an issue. The old Cross Class system, which has been bought up is an example of such a system. You always had a select set of actions that were essentially required. Blood for Blood/Internal Release for physical DPS, Mercy Stroke/Bloodbath for melee, with Fracture being used on Monk, the essential Invigorate etc. You never had a choice as there were clear winners in the skill list and the rest were pointless, you literally had no use cross classing Skill Sunder as an example.

The system as it is now also means, since everyone is the same in regards to a job's kit, how you use it comes down to your skill as a player. You are responsible for the damage you do, the healing/mitigating, the general fight performance and you cannot fall back on an excuse of, well, I do not have that certain action available.