Yoshi-P: "If you want more engaging content, go play Ultimate"

[Ixon]

Healers don't have a rotation like tanks. That would be an immense QOL improvement however SE considers that having healers hit 123 is stressing us too much and could possibly cause the end of civilization as we know it. Well maybe not the second part, however they have bent way over backwards in terms of 'accommodation".

also, new healers tend to react to damage, and new healers may tend to panic. That's not to say that veteran healers do not need emergency heals or ever experience wipes- but they don't heal the same way as those sprout healers or people who just pick up the job once in a while, and they tend not to have anywhere near the same level of stress healing - just as veteran tanks don't have the same as new tanks.

Serious question. How is a 1-2-3 that it not interrupted by other GCD abilities different from from 1-1-1? Or do you want a 1-2-3 that is interruptible by the need to cast a reactionary heal or raise? How would that work? Legitimate question. Because the way I see it, unless you completely remove GCD healing abilities to make healers play more like tanks, a 1-2-3 wouldn't work well. 1-Jimmy stepped in poo and needs a raise but it breaks my combo so just stay dead till I finish-2-3-raise or 1-Jimmy stepped in poo so I raised immediately-2-3 that is not at all different from 1-1-1? The multiple dots that healers had worked because they were independent of each other, and weren't at all affected when needing to use a healer GCD ability. Though we know just giving healers 3 extra dots each is not a good direction due to the removal of many dots from the game as it is. Perhaps instead of 1-2-3 you instead had GCD's that proc'd other GCD's that could be held and not interrupted? Similar to DNC? That way you have the extra DPS options, but the ability to withhold them without getting in the way of healer GCD responsibilities? Would also help with movement if the proc's were insta cast as well. Just a thought.

[Mimilu]

I don't see how. If healing is your core rotation, it wouldn't matter if individual spells would be weaker.

In fact, it would lessen the stress as people would just do their rotation by default rather than trying to react to damage. And there is still the OGCD spells for panic moments.

But it would highlight those who are skilled (those who push DPS while still keeping people alive) and those who aren't (those who just stick to healing).
You essentially want healers to be the healer equivalent of BLM's Ice Mages.

[ASkellington]

Serious question. How is a 1-2-3 that it not interrupted by other GCD abilities different from from 1-1-1? Or do you want a 1-2-3 that is interruptible by the need to cast a reactionary heal or raise? How would that work? Legitimate question. Because the way I see it, unless you completely remove GCD healing abilities to make healers play more like tanks, a 1-2-3 wouldn't work well. 1-Jimmy stepped in poo and needs a raise but it breaks my combo so just stay dead till I finish-2-3-raise or 1-Jimmy stepped in poo so I raised immediately-2-3 that is not at all different from 1-1-1? The multiple dots that healers had worked because they were independent of each other, and weren't at all affected when needing to use a healer GCD ability. Though we know just giving healers 3 extra dots each is not a good direction due to the removal of many dots from the game as it is. Perhaps instead of 1-2-3 you instead had GCD's that proc'd other GCD's that could be held and not interrupted? Similar to DNC? That way you have the extra DPS options, but the ability to withhold them without getting in the way of healer GCD responsibilities? Would also help with movement if the proc's were insta cast as well. Just a thought.

Scholar can get its evil DoTs back (don't see it happening)

WHM can have a 1-2-3 rotation that can help build its lilies, both of them.

AST just needs its card gameplay back if we're going to be honest.

SGE... well SGE imo should have less press and have mit and some more damaging abilities that heal like Pneuma but I am biased so... Actually, make more things to proct Toxicon and reward the SGE for shielding.

[IDontPetLalas]

Serious question. How is a 1-2-3 that it not interrupted by other GCD abilities different from from 1-1-1? Or do you want a 1-2-3 that is interruptible by the need to cast a reactionary heal or raise? How would that work? Legitimate question. Because the way I see it, unless you completely remove GCD healing abilities to make healers play more like tanks, a 1-2-3 wouldn't work well. 1-Jimmy stepped in poo and needs a raise but it breaks my combo so just stay dead till I finish-2-3-raise or 1-Jimmy stepped in poo so I raised immediately-2-3 that is not at all different from 1-1-1? The multiple dots that healers had worked because they were independent of each other, and weren't at all affected when needing to use a healer GCD ability. Though we know just giving healers 3 extra dots each is not a good direction due to the removal of many dots from the game as it is. Perhaps instead of 1-2-3 you instead had GCD's that proc'd other GCD's that could be held and not interrupted? Similar to DNC? That way you have the extra DPS options, but the ability to withhold them without getting in the way of healer GCD responsibilities? Would also help with movement if the proc's were insta cast as well. Just a thought.

First of all, and I am being equally serious, I expect that changes to job design aren't made in isolation . Secondly, when changes are made, whomever makes those changes is thinking about why that job exists and where and how that job should evolve.

So, if we look at your questions, it looks very much like someone who plays from a tank perspective and experience. I understand as a tank, it's not great when something breaks your combo. So those are legitimate questions, would healers let someone stay dead because they're on the floor and it would break their combo? I doubt it very much. One mitigating factor is the amount of mitigation skills that DPS and tanks have been given however. Alternatively, like you said, the ability to have skils that proc, I am thinking more like RDM, could be a better possibility- I am not insistent at all that it 'must" be 123, just that there are some additional options, and has been discussed ad nauseum theer are a number of healers for whatevr reason who won't ever touch them, but they would be available for those who can..

[Shurrikhan]

Serious question. How is a 1-2-3 that it not interrupted by other GCD abilities different from from 1-1-1?

Well, is an unconsolidated Gnashing Fang combo (which was never actually a true combo, but rather a series of 10s procs that literally could not be used early, and interrupted only by Solid Barrel's combo) fundamentally different from its current consolidated state?

...No, there is otherwise no difference, but going 1-2-3 (or finger-sliding 3-2-1 three times as to intercept the furthest step available over the unlock-type combo) as opposed to hitting 1-1-1 for the same, inseparable action is a big deal to some.

Perhaps if modders were to add a couple mock spell IDs and icons and allow people to seemingly combo from Stone III to Aero III to Glare III in 1-2-3 fashion whilst actually just hitting three different buttons, on rotation, for Glare? Voila. Tank combos. Zero increase to complexity or engagement beyond visuals, but it should be inherently better, no?

First of all, and I am being equally serious, I expect that changes to job design aren't made in isolation. Secondly, when changes are made, whomever makes those changes is thinking about why that job exists and where and how that job should evolve.

I'm not sure whether it makes any difference whether the goal is individual isolated changes towards simplicity for each healer or is to collectively gather all healers at a simplified and homogenized state...

would healers let someone stay dead because they're on the floor and it would break their combo? I doubt it very much. One mitigating factor is the amount of mitigation skills that DPS and tanks have been given however. Alternatively, like you said, the ability to have skils that proc, I am thinking more like RDM, could be a better possibility- I am not insistent at all that it 'must" be 123, just that there are some additional options, and has been discussed ad nauseum theer are a number of healers for whatevr reason who won't ever touch them, but they would be available for those who can..

Whether healers would break their combos to heal as needed has no direct bearing on whether it would be fun to have to time heals around combos, though. Put aside what people would, in a pinch, likely do; is that a gameplay constraint that you want?

[linayar]

Except oGCDs are not used for panic moments and haven’t been for several years. Healer gameplay prioritizes their oGCD abilities before using any GCD ability.

The way it is now, yes. I'm not talking about the current state.

The problem with the Blm approach is that damage is always needed while healing is not

The BLM approach is due to healing not always needed. It provides another use for those spells.

Healers don't have a rotation like tanks. That would be an immense QOL improvement however SE considers that having healers hit 123 is stressing us too much and could possibly cause the end of civilization as we know it. Well maybe not the second part, however they have bent way over backwards in terms of 'accommodation".

also, new healers tend to react to damage, and new healers may tend to panic. That's not to say that veteran healers do not need emergency heals or ever experience wipes- but they don't heal the same way as those sprout healers or people who just pick up the job once in a while, and they tend not to have anywhere near the same level of stress healing - just as veteran tanks don't have the same as new tanks.

What healers don't have is a DPS rotation like tank and I'm not proposing that. I'm saying make healing be the rotation and tie it to damage to make it work.

But it would highlight those who are skilled (those who push DPS while still keeping people alive) and those who aren't (those who just stick to healing).
You essentially want healers to be the healer equivalent of BLM's Ice Mages.

Is that an issue? People play differently with any job/role. This way, if people are going to be lazy, the default is healing, which is better than not healing. More than that is player issue, not job issue.

[ForteNightshade]

The BLM approach is due to healing not always needed. It provides another use for those spells.

This BLM equivalent simply isn't feasible though. Healing simply isn't required enough to ever justify sitting in what is essentially your "Astral Fire" phase. And if you were to compare it to Umbral Ice. Well, BLM barely stays in that phase for more than 2-3 GCDs. Which is far too volatile for a healer. Hence why Cleric Stance died. You can't have a healing kit that is primarily inaccessible nor do the current encounter designs support a GCD healing focused gameplay. You'd be spending the vast majority of your time doing precisely nothing.

Is that an issue? People play differently with any job/role. This way, if people are going to be lazy, the default is healing, which is better than not healing. More than that is player issue, not job issue.

Healers contribute far too much damage nowadays for this to be acceptable. Even in a dungeon, it'll slow things down. With higher end content like Savage, it's downright griefing to not DPS considering both healers combined to equal more than a Samurai's DPS. The whole reason healer DPS was simplified from HW days is due to players being too afraid to DPS in lieu of being unable to heal. The devs will never implement any system that makes healing inaccessible like the days of Cleric Stance. Which is essentially what you're asking for.

[Shurrikhan]

The BLM approach is due to healing not always needed. It provides another use for those spells.

I'm not sure the diversity of spells, let alone the fun of healing, would be much improved by moving the majority of buttons worth pressing from oGCDs to GCDs (by outright converting most healing oGCDs to GCDs -- with the value of a Medica or Cure II equivalent rolled into each)... I'd still need to think it over though.

That said, I don't see what the "another use for those spells" would be or entail unless you turn a would-be healing spell into something not so constrained by circumstance (e.g., into damage or damage buffs).

To run the UI/AF metaphor, unless you're essentially using a single skill as a toggle for any and all healing spells into new damage ones (a major, but not undeserved, investment in increased kit size), a "BLM approach" can only make half or more of one's kit unusable at any given moment --in effect just greatly reducing freedom and perceived responsiveness-- just as Cleric Stance did before.

[HyoMinPark]

The BLM approach is due to healing not always needed. It provides another use for those spells.

What healers don't have is a DPS rotation like tank and I'm not proposing that. I'm saying make healing be the rotation and tie it to damage to make it work.

Except your system still won’t work due to the current encounter design in FFXIV. You are trying to enforce “healing for the sake of healing” in a game with low healing requirements (even in high-end content if you compare the amount of time spent dealing damage and the amount of time spent healing) and scripted damage. Your system doesn’t do anything to improve healers—it just gatekeeps them from damage (which the current healers are quite good at despite the boring “rotation” they have), and forces pointless healing “for the sake of incorporating healing into their rotation”; and you’re masking this with the caveat of mana regen in the healing phase.

This is poor design because overhealing is a waste of your GCD. You are healing nothing. Pressing a button that does nothing isn’t beneficial to you or the party you are in. And you will be overhealing with your proposed design unless encounters are overhauled to incorporate more incoming damage to a party at far more frequent rates, or to incorporate random and unscripted damage to the party or members of the party that can potentially align with this “healing phase”.

Your proposed system does not seem like the kind that has flexible phase changes since you expressly want to lock mana regen to it, and stated that the damage abilities would have high MP costs. Damage in this game is scripted, so what happens when the healer is out of mana from their “damage phase”, and is forced into their “healing phase” during a period where a boss is doing zero damage to everyone except the main tank? Pointless overhealing. And, again, that will not help the party. It will not improve gameplay. It will just make healers contribute less overall by forcing a healing rotation in lieu of when they could be dealing damage.

It would be far simpler to just bring back OG Cleric Stance, if you want to enforce a “healing phase” and “damage phase” into a healer’s rotation. At least Cleric was flexible.



Healing being attached to damage would really only work with things adding more abilities like Pneuma: that still deal damage, but they also heal a party at the same time. And since Pneuma is the same potency as Dosis, it makes the skill extremely flexible in terms of when you can use it. Add more skills like that. Don’t force a pointless healing phase just to incorporate healing for the sake of healing.

[Mimilu]

Is that an issue? People play differently with any job/role. This way, if people are going to be lazy, the default is healing, which is better than not healing. More than that is player issue, not job issue.

There is no "playing a job differently" in XIV, jobs are designed linearly. Sure, people might not play optimally but each job has a bare-minimum way to play. Healers are the only role people try to argue about "playstyle" (i.e. only healing) being a thing, even though the game even tells you in both the CNJ questline (the only healer you can begin the game as without a job potion) and the Hall of Novice that you should be DPSing if you're not healing.
Not to mention, "lazy" players and newer player/healers already default to just healing and the results are obvious: Slower runs and DPS checks not being met.