Yoshi-P: "If you want more engaging content, go play Ultimate"

[IDontPetLalas]

I don't see how. If healing is your core rotation, it wouldn't matter if individual spells would be weaker.

In fact, it would lessen the stress as people would just do their rotation by default rather than trying to react to damage. And there is still the OGCD spells for panic moments.

Healers don't have a rotation like tanks. That would be an immense QOL improvement however SE considers that having healers hit 123 is stressing us too much and could possibly cause the end of civilization as we know it. Well maybe not the second part, however they have bent way over backwards in terms of 'accommodation".

also, new healers tend to react to damage, and new healers may tend to panic. That's not to say that veteran healers do not need emergency heals or ever experience wipes- but they don't heal the same way as those sprout healers or people who just pick up the job once in a while, and they tend not to have anywhere near the same level of stress healing - just as veteran tanks don't have the same as new tanks.

[Ixon]

Healers don't have a rotation like tanks. That would be an immense QOL improvement however SE considers that having healers hit 123 is stressing us too much and could possibly cause the end of civilization as we know it. Well maybe not the second part, however they have bent way over backwards in terms of 'accommodation".

also, new healers tend to react to damage, and new healers may tend to panic. That's not to say that veteran healers do not need emergency heals or ever experience wipes- but they don't heal the same way as those sprout healers or people who just pick up the job once in a while, and they tend not to have anywhere near the same level of stress healing - just as veteran tanks don't have the same as new tanks.

Serious question. How is a 1-2-3 that it not interrupted by other GCD abilities different from from 1-1-1? Or do you want a 1-2-3 that is interruptible by the need to cast a reactionary heal or raise? How would that work? Legitimate question. Because the way I see it, unless you completely remove GCD healing abilities to make healers play more like tanks, a 1-2-3 wouldn't work well. 1-Jimmy stepped in poo and needs a raise but it breaks my combo so just stay dead till I finish-2-3-raise or 1-Jimmy stepped in poo so I raised immediately-2-3 that is not at all different from 1-1-1? The multiple dots that healers had worked because they were independent of each other, and weren't at all affected when needing to use a healer GCD ability. Though we know just giving healers 3 extra dots each is not a good direction due to the removal of many dots from the game as it is. Perhaps instead of 1-2-3 you instead had GCD's that proc'd other GCD's that could be held and not interrupted? Similar to DNC? That way you have the extra DPS options, but the ability to withhold them without getting in the way of healer GCD responsibilities? Would also help with movement if the proc's were insta cast as well. Just a thought.

[ASkellington]

Serious question. How is a 1-2-3 that it not interrupted by other GCD abilities different from from 1-1-1? Or do you want a 1-2-3 that is interruptible by the need to cast a reactionary heal or raise? How would that work? Legitimate question. Because the way I see it, unless you completely remove GCD healing abilities to make healers play more like tanks, a 1-2-3 wouldn't work well. 1-Jimmy stepped in poo and needs a raise but it breaks my combo so just stay dead till I finish-2-3-raise or 1-Jimmy stepped in poo so I raised immediately-2-3 that is not at all different from 1-1-1? The multiple dots that healers had worked because they were independent of each other, and weren't at all affected when needing to use a healer GCD ability. Though we know just giving healers 3 extra dots each is not a good direction due to the removal of many dots from the game as it is. Perhaps instead of 1-2-3 you instead had GCD's that proc'd other GCD's that could be held and not interrupted? Similar to DNC? That way you have the extra DPS options, but the ability to withhold them without getting in the way of healer GCD responsibilities? Would also help with movement if the proc's were insta cast as well. Just a thought.

Scholar can get its evil DoTs back (don't see it happening)

WHM can have a 1-2-3 rotation that can help build its lilies, both of them.

AST just needs its card gameplay back if we're going to be honest.

SGE... well SGE imo should have less press and have mit and some more damaging abilities that heal like Pneuma but I am biased so... Actually, make more things to proct Toxicon and reward the SGE for shielding.

[IDontPetLalas]

Serious question. How is a 1-2-3 that it not interrupted by other GCD abilities different from from 1-1-1? Or do you want a 1-2-3 that is interruptible by the need to cast a reactionary heal or raise? How would that work? Legitimate question. Because the way I see it, unless you completely remove GCD healing abilities to make healers play more like tanks, a 1-2-3 wouldn't work well. 1-Jimmy stepped in poo and needs a raise but it breaks my combo so just stay dead till I finish-2-3-raise or 1-Jimmy stepped in poo so I raised immediately-2-3 that is not at all different from 1-1-1? The multiple dots that healers had worked because they were independent of each other, and weren't at all affected when needing to use a healer GCD ability. Though we know just giving healers 3 extra dots each is not a good direction due to the removal of many dots from the game as it is. Perhaps instead of 1-2-3 you instead had GCD's that proc'd other GCD's that could be held and not interrupted? Similar to DNC? That way you have the extra DPS options, but the ability to withhold them without getting in the way of healer GCD responsibilities? Would also help with movement if the proc's were insta cast as well. Just a thought.

First of all, and I am being equally serious, I expect that changes to job design aren't made in isolation . Secondly, when changes are made, whomever makes those changes is thinking about why that job exists and where and how that job should evolve.

So, if we look at your questions, it looks very much like someone who plays from a tank perspective and experience. I understand as a tank, it's not great when something breaks your combo. So those are legitimate questions, would healers let someone stay dead because they're on the floor and it would break their combo? I doubt it very much. One mitigating factor is the amount of mitigation skills that DPS and tanks have been given however. Alternatively, like you said, the ability to have skils that proc, I am thinking more like RDM, could be a better possibility- I am not insistent at all that it 'must" be 123, just that there are some additional options, and has been discussed ad nauseum theer are a number of healers for whatevr reason who won't ever touch them, but they would be available for those who can..

[Shurrikhan]

Serious question. How is a 1-2-3 that it not interrupted by other GCD abilities different from from 1-1-1?

Well, is an unconsolidated Gnashing Fang combo (which was never actually a true combo, but rather a series of 10s procs that literally could not be used early, and interrupted only by Solid Barrel's combo) fundamentally different from its current consolidated state?

...No, there is otherwise no difference, but going 1-2-3 (or finger-sliding 3-2-1 three times as to intercept the furthest step available over the unlock-type combo) as opposed to hitting 1-1-1 for the same, inseparable action is a big deal to some.

Perhaps if modders were to add a couple mock spell IDs and icons and allow people to seemingly combo from Stone III to Aero III to Glare III in 1-2-3 fashion whilst actually just hitting three different buttons, on rotation, for Glare? Voila. Tank combos. Zero increase to complexity or engagement beyond visuals, but it should be inherently better, no?

First of all, and I am being equally serious, I expect that changes to job design aren't made in isolation. Secondly, when changes are made, whomever makes those changes is thinking about why that job exists and where and how that job should evolve.

I'm not sure whether it makes any difference whether the goal is individual isolated changes towards simplicity for each healer or is to collectively gather all healers at a simplified and homogenized state...

would healers let someone stay dead because they're on the floor and it would break their combo? I doubt it very much. One mitigating factor is the amount of mitigation skills that DPS and tanks have been given however. Alternatively, like you said, the ability to have skils that proc, I am thinking more like RDM, could be a better possibility- I am not insistent at all that it 'must" be 123, just that there are some additional options, and has been discussed ad nauseum theer are a number of healers for whatevr reason who won't ever touch them, but they would be available for those who can..

Whether healers would break their combos to heal as needed has no direct bearing on whether it would be fun to have to time heals around combos, though. Put aside what people would, in a pinch, likely do; is that a gameplay constraint that you want?

[Punslinger]

Serious question. How is a 1-2-3 that it not interrupted by other GCD abilities different from from 1-1-1?

Let's take a look at GNB's 1-2-3. Each ability does something different, and the 2 and 3 interact with other parts of GNB's kit. The 1 is just a basic attack. The 2 gives you a self-heal and a shield, which can be passed to a party member via Heart of Stone. Need to shield someone who's about to eat damage? 1-2-HoS-3. The 3 gives you a cartridge which can be spent on Burst Strike or a Continuation Combo.

1-2-3 is not the endpoint of what a healer DPS rotation should be, and people who pretend like it is are trotting out a strawman more obvious than the Scarecrow from The Wizard of Oz. It's a starting point. If each ability does something different, and interacts with the rest of the healer's kit in different ways, or creates resources that can be spent to fuel the eleventy dozen oGCDs Square keeps giving healers (such that using them requires some actual thought, as opposed to mindlessly mashing whichever one is off-cooldown and closest to the 1 key), or branches to different combos (like SAM's 1-5-6-1-2-3-1-4 sequence to proc all three Sen), then healer DPS can be made more interesting, and more rewarding, and better integrated into each healer's kit.

Because the way I see it, unless you completely remove GCD healing abilities to make healers play more like tanks, a 1-2-3 wouldn't work well.

That's...basically how healers are already. Good healers avoid GCD heals like the plague. And Square keeps adding oGCD heals nonstop.

Across four expansions, literally the only GCD heals that have been added to existing jobs are WHM's Afflatus lily heals. Every new WHM heal in HW was an oGCD. Every new SCH heal in HW was an oGCD. Every new WHM, SCH, and AST heal in SB was an oGCD. Every new SCH and AST heal in ShB was an oGCD. Every WHM, SCH, and AST heal in EW is an oGCD.

In seven years, AST has gone from having exactly one oGCD heal, Essential Dignity, to having eight oGCD heals: Essential Dignity, Celestial Opposition, Earthly Star, Celestial Intersection, Horoscope, Collective Unconscious, Exaltation, Macrocosmos. (And that count excludes Lightspeed, Synastry, and Neutral Sect.)

Healers already play exactly like tanks: whale on the boss for most of the fight, occasionally slap a mitigation/healing oGCD as needed. But tanks are allowed to have actual DPS rotations, and healers, for some unfathomable reason, are not.

[Ixon]

Healers already play exactly like tanks: whale on the boss for most of the fight, occasionally slap a mitigation/healing oGCD as needed. But tanks are allowed to have actual DPS rotations, and healers, for some unfathomable reason, are not.

Agree with the exception that both DPS and Tanks arguably play the exact same way in any content, whilst Healers do not. Whether I am in a dungeon, or a trial, or in savage raiding, I do about the same thing every time. I have a rotation that may need a minor tweak here or there, but I am still popping mitigations for tank busters, AoE's and Auto's. I MAY toss out a single target to someone who steps in the bad now and then, but that's about it. DPS have their optimal rotation that once they have got down, doesn't really change that much either, regardless of the content. Healers, on the other hand, vary more based off the players that they are matched with.

If a group is bad, the healers are the MOST affected. If I am a dps in a bad group, almost nothing changes, I just try to do as much damage as possible. If my group is bad an I am a tank, maybe I need to be more cautions of my cooldowns, throw one out one of them on an ally if needed, but other than that I try to do as much damage as I can. However a healers whole game plan might change. Bad tanks might need GCD heals if your kit runs dry, people will need to be scraped off the floor. When it comes to 8 man content more often than not a healer has to compensate more for a bad healer than a tank has to compensate for another bad tank, or dps for bad dps. This affects how they can structure healers more than tanks or dps, and personally that's where I see the disparity.

Again(I always have to repeat this -_-), I DO think healers could use more DPS options, as long as there is an understanding of why they are different, and why they need to be different. Sure these cases don't matter for statics and fights you know like the back of your hand, but until they change it, you have to balance for all content and all players.(Side note, most healer upgrades are oGCD imo because a LOT of healers HATED GCD heals, and still do, why add more what the community avidly avoids?)

[Banriikku]

Again(I always have to repeat this -_-), I DO think healers could use more DPS options, as long as there is an understanding of why they are different, and why they need to be different. Sure these cases don't matter for statics and fights you know like the back of your hand, but until they change it, you have to balance for all content and all players.(Side note, most healer upgrades are oGCD imo because a LOT of healers HATED GCD heals, and still do, why add more what the community avidly avoids?)

Simple answer to that : Because damage meta and if you are using GCD healing you are punished... SE created the meta but the community is at fault ? I disagree, healing is binary and SE created this. I have no benefit for keeping the party above the needed threshold and all that matters is dps, nothing else. If we had debuffs/buffs or healing meant something beyond reaching a certain number then i would agree. But healers dont get a "healer mount" because the world would collaps and burn and for the same reasons we dont get anything for dps or debuff/buff. "Healers having fun ? Not in my game "- SE Dev

[Liam_Harper]

If a group is bad, the healers are the MOST affected. If I am a dps in a bad group, almost nothing changes, I just try to do as much damage as possible.

Unfortunately that just boils down to "no you can't have fun with your role, because you have to babysit the group incase they mess up". I pick up a class in an MMO to engage with it and have fun. In the case of healer, that's constantly supporting the team. Not to be a standby babysitter.

There's also the fact that even if dps was far more engaging, the same rules apply as always. Stop dps if you have to hardcast heal. If everything goes messy, you switch priorities. I'll never understand this idea that engaging dps is going to tax new players, you don't have to use it if everything is going chaotic. It's for downtime.

[Punslinger]

Sure these cases don't matter for statics and fights you know like the back of your hand, but until they change it, you have to balance for all content and all players.

Precisely, which is why it's weird that so much of the game's content is tuned to be doable without healers at all. Tanks have enough self-sustain that 1 Tank + 3 DPS parties are viable in dungeons. All-tank 24-mans have been a thing forever. E4S was clearable without healers when it was current. P1S and P2S are clearable without healers. UCoB has been cleared without healers.

And the MSQ is such a huge chunk of the game's content that it's genuinely mind-boggling why healers have only two DPS buttons to use from level 4 to level 90. Back during SB, I leveled SAM as an alt job specifically for the MSQ, because Malefic-spamming my way through SB was putting me to sleep by level 62.

Healers should be necessary and engaged in all content. They shouldn't just be fun only in Savages or Ultimates, or only if you get a party of glue-huffing five-year-olds in DF. 95% of their kit shouldn't be useless in the MSQ, which they'll spend dozens of hours playing through.

SE didnt create the damage meta though, the players did.

This is provably false with some simple logic.

Given: A healer GCD can be spent on damage or healing, or doing nothing.
Given: All EX/Savage/Ult bosses have enrage timers, hard-capping the number of possible GCDs.
Given: Increased damage is always useful, because it makes the boss die faster.
Given: Healing is capped by health bars not going past 100%.

Conclusion: GCDs are a scarce resource. DPS is a more efficient use of a GCD than healing. DPS is therefore incentivized over healing by the game design. Rational healers will try to minimize the number of GCDs spent on healing and maximize the number spent on DPS.

This has nothing to do with Gordias, and nothing to do with players "forcing" uber-l337 meta 1% speedrun strats on people. It is simple logic and economics.

I dont think you should be picking healer to DPS. Yes, the amount of DPSing you do should be fun, but it also should come secondary to the healing responsibilities of the healer role.

Now do tanks.