What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[Lauront]

My spikes do get up when I see someone trying to gaslight someone into believing something unfounded by insulting their intelligence and / or comprehension, which is why I went a bit on the offensive with the post that started this discussion. I wish one of these theories made sense as to why the sundering was required, my brain might stop looping on it then.

I agree, I don't think it's enough by itself, hence incorporating the Plenty as a vision of their "probable" fate if they didn't change... and in turn the plot introduces excuses as to why she refuses to give them the exact truth, so they've little reason to heed her words and "change"...

If I may on the front of the subterranean noise: Remember where Pandaemonium is in relation to everything and everywhere else.
We're probably just going to blame Lahabrea again.

Yeah, that would be my final straw, if they try go down that avenue.

[KizuyaKatogami]

Correct.
But it's also all I've got at the moment. Especially considering apparently Panda's where Elidibus remembers us, since the MSQ writers decided to do him filthy and replace his MSQ relevance with Hermes / Fanny Dantom.



I don't think it'll explain most of those, but at this point I'll take anything over the nothing currently covering up the plot holes.

It's sad that we have to resort to all these little instances in hopes of them explaining things tbh. Personally id be pretty agitated if they did just end up throwing all the problems onto Laha and trying to make him responsible for it all. We've had the "evil ascian" plots for how long now? I think we need a change of pace from it tbh.Although that seems to be the only thing they know how to write now, while also showing how x character is totally right and could do no wrong.

[PawPaw]

don't read into it too deeply.

Oh, I do hope this becomes the new tagline for the game.

[KageTokage]

The vibe I got was that the minds of the Ancients were still vulnerable to the effects of dynamis, just not their bodies, and at the moment where we hear Meteion's despair her influence simply hadn't grown strong to enough to affect them in that regard.

The ones who lost control of their magicks were described as being seized by a "fear that could not be expunged" back in Shadowbringers, so I assume there was some critical threshold where they'd become consumed by despair and lose reason, similar to how a lot of people who turned became hysterical before the transformation kicked in.

But yeah, I'm also hoping they don't take the "Actually, it was Ascians." angle again with Pandemonium and explain they were more responsible for the Final Days then it seemed initially like with Eden revealing that the Flood of Light was caused by Mitron becoming the first sin eater.

I still find it curious that we never witnessed the natural disasters that ravaged the world with the first coming, but at this point I wouldn't surprise me if they just glossed over it and there's no deeper meaning behind it.

[Lauront]

I imagine that's the sort of explanation they'd give if they did address it, i.e. bypassing both their aetherically denser bodies and souls. It's approximately close enough to seem planned all along. I do get the impression that the precise details behind what they were going to use as the cause changed along the way, but either way, it's enough to establish they can be affected by it to some degree - which in turn raises questions about how a suppression field, like the sort in Ktisis Hyperboreia, and other similar mechanisms, could've been used by them to improve their own ability to influence it, since it clearly exists at a certain base level, even if their natural aetheric levels interfere with it.

Regarding the natural disasters, I think they're being treated in the same way as their cure (Zodiark's powers to restore the natural function of the star); present but not commented upon. It's a bit anticlimactic given how the SHB Hyth dialogue placed stress on all these points, but to me it seems like they're ready to launch into the new story now rather than flesh out all these points further.

You're right, but it does mostly answer my question how they were affected if it was indirectly through a disruption of the planetary aether flow (which they may use to power their magic?), so thank you! Gives me something to think about

Forgot to comment on this part - their magic is powered through their own innate aetheric reserves.

[Rulakir]

Count me in for not being interested in 'the Ancients were doomed no matter what' narrative. Just give us an alternate timeline where they have a happy ending and we'd all shut up about it. :P We don't even have to visit it, it's enough knowing it exists.

Unrelated, I was listening to Nobbel's thoughts on Stormblood and he said something that reminded me of where we're at right now:

"I think a big problem for Stormblood is that it follows Heavensward. Heavensward you are high and mighty, you dealt with dragons, and gods, and primals, etc. and now they bring you down again and I come to this brand new land. 'Let us introduce you to the local pot maker, and the local bakery, and the local water vendor. Isn't this city fantastic?' And you're going through it like, 'Yeah, it's a nice city. I mean, I partied with dragons, but it's kind of a nice city.' It's okay if they do it once, but they do it twice and that feels unbelievably slow up to the point I remember going through Stormblood and the first 2-3 streams that I did I was getting worried. I was getting worried because it felt so slow."

This is basically how I feel headed into 6.1. I'm genuinely worried we're going to get another ARR.

[Caurcas]

Stormblood was peak story telling. Also, I thought the anti Venat camp didn't want happy endings?

[Kozh]

"I think a big problem for Stormblood is that it follows Heavensward. Heavensward you are high and mighty, you dealt with dragons, and gods, and primals, etc. and now they bring you down again and I come to this brand new land. 'Let us introduce you to the local pot maker, and the local bakery, and the local water vendor. Isn't this city fantastic?' And you're going through it like, 'Yeah, it's a nice city. I mean, I partied with dragons, but it's kind of a nice city.' It's okay if they do it once, but they do it twice and that feels unbelievably slow up to the point I remember going through Stormblood and the first 2-3 streams that I did I was getting worried. I was getting worried because it felt so slow."

Ehh... I actually have to disagree with this. SB issue is how Ala mhigo get thrown under bus for doma. There's nothing wrong with low-fantasy(?) setting. Maybe I'm just bias since I prefer that over usual high fantasy setting with dragons etc. But we do deal with primals too on SB, and dragons took a back seat halfway through HW.

Also, I thought the anti Venat camp didn't want happy endings?

No, we don't want bad writing U_U

[Rulakir]

I don't particularly like dragons because they're horribly overused in fantasy and especially in MMOs. It's why I'm disinterested in going to Meracydia. FFXIV has done a better job with them than most, but I'd still rather their appearances be limited.

[Brinne]

PawPaw, I thought your post was great and I completely agreed with it. ;_; Of course the Ancients were doomed. So is the Sundered world. So are we. We're all doomed - if not the Plenty, something is going to get us sooner or later. The idea that Venat was so petrified of a distant possibility for a stagnant future to the point of annihilating the planet feels so strange when in conjunction with the rest of the messaging of the expansion, which usually comes down to "we know that we're ultimately doomed, but we will do our best to live and find small joys, offering what kindness we can to others, anyway." "Avoiding the Plenty" is not and never will be something that can be done permanently, or with a huge, dramatic, terrible step like the Sundering. It's something you deal with day by day, every day, as a perpetual grind, talking to and caring for individual people.

I always thought that Yshtola facing down the Ea was sort of hilariously easily transplanted onto Venat's problem with the Ancients: the Ea point out that everything is doomed, and that by reaching for "too much" knowledge will reach the inevitable end point of nihilism and apathy. Y'shtola's reply is that she doesn't care, will keep pursuing knowledge anyway, and besides just because it happened to them doesn't mean she agrees with it. Just replace "knowledge" with "happiness" and "better standard of living", and, uh.

As a side note, going back to Hermes - when I, at least, say he seems "very human" to me and that I therefore I love him as a character, it's not a direct link from the source of his sadness and depression to "wanting to destroy the world." It's more of seeing a gradual, self-destructive pipeline, eroding gradually like poison, that I can connect with - the original valid starting point of sadness and concern, reinforcing those feelings by isolating himself and primarily interacting with someone who has no power to disagree with his perspective, the isolation leading to poisonous bitterness and contempt for the people around him, feeling like he has no freedom of expression for that bitter hatred that continues to grow within him (because he originally was too afraid to openly express his depression), and all of that leading to that messed up moment where, largely on impulse, he looked at the apocalypse bomb he accidentally created and in the heat of the moment said: "You know what? Go ahead."

It's less the direct motive, and more the psychological process that led him to an ugly, ugly place, that I enjoy in him as a character. I have also been to ugly places that aren't completely dissimilar while in the throes of depression, but I would like to think I do my best to avoid spiraling as badly as Hermes does.