Yoshi-P: "If you want more engaging content, go play Ultimate"

[IDontPetLalas]

I have close to 450 hours and still lvl 65. I'm not sure in what world getting to 90 isn't a big time investment but okay.
Healers in specifically might be a problem, I admit I have little experience as one as I pretty much just have a lvl 51 astro but it's just the philosophy of the dev team and in general really. You can't expect to play 8 to 10 hours a day and never run out of content, it's unrealistic.

This thread isn't about content, it relates to healer design feedback. What does "it's just the philosophy of the dev team ' even mean?

[WaxSw]

I have close to 450 hours and still lvl 65. I'm not sure in what world getting to 90 isn't a big time investment but okay.
Healers in specifically might be a problem, I admit I have little experience as one as I pretty much just have a lvl 51 astro but it's just the philosophy of the dev team and in general really. You can't expect to play 8 to 10 hours a day and never run out of content, it's unrealistic.

First lv90 is the one that takes time because the MSQ gating, past that you can get any job up to lv90 very quickly as long as you know what you're doing so its not a big time investment and as said is the bare minimun to experience endgame content and how the jobs are designed because a lot of them simply do not have their core elements at low levels and their rotations are planned with lv90 skills in mind.

The focus of this thread is not about time or content (thats another can of worms) though but how healers are by a long shot the worst designed jobs in the game and their gameplay simply do not fit the battle design we're given and how our complains go either unheard of simply are played down like the "go play ultimate" the producer gave us.

[Maltothoris]

Just bumping this up so that this stays close to the front page.

Anyways, I find it how they reworded it in the digest compared to how it was in the live letter. The translation from the reddit discord was "You’re probably comparing the raid as it is now to what you had in Patch 5.4 (Eden’s Promise) but you have to remember that in 6.0 we added new jobs and we’re still balancing things and give people a chance to clear if they possibly can and from there we’ll raise the challenge level in part 2 and 3 of Pandaemonium. I think even at that point if you’re still unsatisfied thinking “healing is too easy”, definitely try the Ultimate content and suffer."

Then look at it in the live letter digest "
A: We hold back on the difficulty of the initial Savage raids of each expansion to allow more people to clear, which goes for Asphodelos as well.

I imagine a lot of comparisons are being drawn between the current encounters and the Savage encounters added in Patch 5.4, but the difficulty will be gradually increased as players get more comfortable with their jobs again. But should you yearn for more, please look forward to Dragonsong’s Reprise (Ultimate)!

[Silver-Strider]

Just bumping this up so that this stays close to the front page.

Anyways, I find it how they reworded it in the digest compared to how it was in the live letter. The translation from the reddit discord was "You’re probably comparing the raid as it is now to what you had in Patch 5.4 (Eden’s Promise) but you have to remember that in 6.0 we added new jobs and we’re still balancing things and give people a chance to clear if they possibly can and from there we’ll raise the challenge level in part 2 and 3 of Pandaemonium. I think even at that point if you’re still unsatisfied thinking “healing is too easy”, definitely try the Ultimate content and suffer."

Then look at it in the live letter digest "
A: We hold back on the difficulty of the initial Savage raids of each expansion to allow more people to clear, which goes for Asphodelos as well.

I imagine a lot of comparisons are being drawn between the current encounters and the Savage encounters added in Patch 5.4, but the difficulty will be gradually increased as players get more comfortable with their jobs again. But should you yearn for more, please look forward to Dragonsong’s Reprise (Ultimate)!

Doesn't really matter how they reworded it since it missed the point of the question entirely either way.

[AngeliouxRein]

I mean, the question for the live letter couldn't have been written out more clearly and even went out of its way to place examples on what healers are upset about. Somehow...they still chose to assume it has something to do with content difficulty vs healers having an engaging kit that doesn't rely on us getting a terrible party...but here we are... Do we really need to pull a "male viera" thread moment to get this through them, I like to think not but... again... here we are.

[Nekokaori]

So, im just going to say this, of course healers get treated that way. With the concept of only regen/barrier. I quit over it after stormblood originally...

Lets be honest it was noticeable when they removed protect as well same with stoneskin on whm

Back when ast was fun to play bole grating defense, arrow/spear granting haste tbh, ewer and spire increasing buff duration etc that was what made ast fun but they were not smart enough to realize buff healers could been a 3rd type.


But wow and ffxiv and tbh all mmos have a huge issue.

That issue is devs saying "play how i think you should or ur screwed"
Wow devs basically made u play daily if u want to get any were punishing u if u stop.

Ffxiv devs punish you if u keep playing.

I'm sorry but devs need to face the facts and stop basically guilt triping if you don't game how they view u should. Because their ideology doesn't matter outside of themselves.

They also believe in false hoods that the numbers, are the most important.
Id play stormblood ast over this one even if the heals and dps was 79% lower. Because it was fun and enjoyable pre stormblood and in stormblood

Also mmos devs like to use the excuse "you cant please everyone" but yes you can there is a reason games don't just have 4 classes/jobs. To give different combat style and playstyle. With different skill level for each.
And yes all mmos do this just in different ways.

[IdowhatIwant]

Just bumping this up so that this stays close to the front page.

Anyways, I find it how they reworded it in the digest compared to how it was in the live letter. The translation from the reddit discord was "You’re probably comparing the raid as it is now to what you had in Patch 5.4 (Eden’s Promise) but you have to remember that in 6.0 we added new jobs and we’re still balancing things and give people a chance to clear if they possibly can and from there we’ll raise the challenge level in part 2 and 3 of Pandaemonium. I think even at that point if you’re still unsatisfied thinking “healing is too easy”, definitely try the Ultimate content and suffer."

Then look at it in the live letter digest "
A: We hold back on the difficulty of the initial Savage raids of each expansion to allow more people to clear, which goes for Asphodelos as well.

I imagine a lot of comparisons are being drawn between the current encounters and the Savage encounters added in Patch 5.4, but the difficulty will be gradually increased as players get more comfortable with their jobs again. But should you yearn for more, please look forward to Dragonsong’s Reprise (Ultimate)!

It should not take several patches for classes to feel complete. I get there are balancing issues but the question was in regards to healer not feeling like healers, and there dps rotation being 1 button. Yoshi P has stated almost every expansion when healer DPS rotation is mentioned is healers are designed to heal, they should not need to DPS to clear savage content but this is not true. The difficulty of savage also does not matter when healers are not needing to heal for any content outside of savage. This answer Yoshi P provides avoids the question all together. It seems like an answer where Yoshi P assumes this is a new player and there are no problems, but truth is this has been a complaint for years.

As a side note there have been previous raids where healers had to do things for the party to survive, such as esuna debuffs, shield prey mechanics ect. but the game has not utilized mechanics to use there kit in a long time outside of a dungeon here and there.

[Deceptus]

Doesn't really matter how they reworded it since it missed the point of the question entirely either way.

It could be extremely easy excuse to say yeah they read them live but they had these questions well in advance and you know they vetted every single one.

They should have at minimum got the question right, which they didn't.

The Live Letters are an amazing glimpse into the dev team but they're 100% on the dev teams terms. What needs to happen is a "Deep Dive" series where they bring in the dev team, especially some of the battle designers and speak will real people outside of the team so they can get out of their echo chamber.

Get some real perspective.

[Reiryuu]

It could be extremely easy excuse to say yeah they read them live but they had these questions well in advance and you know they vetted every single one.

They should have at minimum got the question right, which they didn't.

The Live Letters are an amazing glimpse into the dev team but they're 100% on the dev teams turn. What needs to happen is a "Deep Dive" series where they bring in the dev team, especially some of the battle designers and speak will real people outside of the team so they can get out of their echo chamber.

Get some real perspective.

Unfortunately, there are people who like the dumbed down, braindead state of healers right now. So those voices will affirm their assertion that their decisions are good ones. I really wish the devs would/could level a healer from 1-90 through the MSQ to get a good idea on what they've done to healers... but... I doubt that will ever happen... and that's why I'm no longer maining a healer.

[Semirhage]

You are confusing "not engaging/simple" with "not fun". For instance, WAR is very, very simples, and not all that engaging when compared to DRK and GNB right? However it's still FUN. At no point at all, did I say WHM had to be unfun or awful. You misconstrued what I am saying and fabricate what you want to hear. All I said was WHM will forever be designed to be simple. You won't win that fight as it's core to it's identity even historically throughout Final Fantasy titles. The dream in general on a design basis is to have jobs whose PLAYSTYLE appeals to a fraction of the playerbase. Some people enjoy the simpler, slower paced jobs compared to the higher paced, more engaging jobs. It is a terrible design choice to make every job as engaging as every other job, and better to have some resemblance of identity and playstyle that differentiates itself from another job. I'll say it again cause you miss it a lot, WHM needs work, WHM has room to improve, but it won't ever become more than what it was always designed to be. It doesn't matter if it's your favorite or not. I like AST or MCH the most aesthetically, but because I never enjoyed it's playstyle, I don't play it.

I argue against WHM's "yay crayola" job design for a bunch of reasons, engagement chief among them, but it's not the only consideration I have there. I'm sure we both know that HURRR 1111111111111 is wretched, horrible game design. And I won't stop complaining until it gets a LOT less babymode than that.

The other chief reason I argue against it is role balance. Healer role meta, barring a single minor patch or two, has pretty much been "lol not WHM" for years and years and years. And this isn't an accident. The reason it's "lol not WHM" is because WHM is the worst at everything. If not that, it's at least a strong contender in the categories it doesn't get an F in. The DPS role has this idea the right way around: you get utility, or you get personal output. Tinker upward and downward as you please. In many ways, that utility makes up for personal output- in most patches, you don't feel like you're actively gimping your party when you play a RDM, because the extra stuff you can do on the side like the occasional pull-squeaking Vercure, or spamming Verraise, or your party buff is useful enough that you don't feel like a crappy Roseart drawing of a BLM.

The healer role says screw that; WHM gets no utility, garbage damage output compared to its peers, and nothing engaging to manage in its downtime. It's a shell of a job. It has nothing going for it. SOMETHING has to give here. Why the hell have the job exist at all if it's just "worse fill in the blank" at everything? It excels at nothing. It's even been a worse healer than Astro for years, and raw HPS output is a garbage fake "advantage" that it's been touted to have for a long time.

WHM needs to be nuked from orbit. Being "the crappy one" isn't an identity. Its oversimplicity is one of the many contributing factors to this. I'm tired of enjoying the aesthetic of WHM only to be told by the dev team that LOL 11111111111111 is an "identity". Because if the healer role ever gets out of this rut it's in, the Cassandra in me sees the other three healers getting deluxe makeovers, and WHM remains boring and stupid because "it's supposed to be" or "because people like SiMpL". And I'd rather it not happen that way.