What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[Caurcas]

In the end we are free of the ancients twisted morality.

Reached post limit so have to edit this to respond to the Lauront gentleman. I am not eager to take a vacation as I've not broken out the language to do so. But in all honesty this thread, like every other lore thread has become another Venat hate fan club. Sure we've debated philosophy and principles but none of that is ever going to change in either party so we are just running around a ring sniping at each other's takes on the story in effort to win forum points. Might as well have fun.

[KizuyaKatogami]

In the end we are free of the ancients twisted morality.

Valens,Zenos, and Amon all say hai

[EgilTheStressedMage]

They should have had Zenos kill off the Scions one by one until you confronted him on the moon as Zodenos then "to be continued" pops up. Which would be weird at level 83 but I'm tired and am fresh out of damns.

[Lauront]

Meteion is a seriously lame antagonist to get owned by.

On the same level as your attempts to rile up people here, in all honesty. Though I suppose you're just eager to take another extended forum vacation - and who am I to deny you that?

[PawPaw]

I've never understood humanity's obsession with life. I don't believe ending one's life has to be justified. As far as I'm concerned, it's none of anyone's business outside of family under certain circumstances. I understand others don't feel the same, but we're talking about a culture that didn't have a stigma about it. I sure as Hell wouldn't want to live forever. Even if I had a perfect life, at some point I'd just get tired with continued existence. Their souls were eternal and would be reborn, so it's not as if they were permanently gone - at least until they were sundered.

*sigh* Same. I've been struggling to think of anything in 6.1-7.0 that would be a hook for me at this point. I'm rather disappointed they decided to be done with the most interesting storyline the game's had since 3.3. It wasn't a 10-year arc either, it really only started in ShB so it feels abruptly cut short for seemingly no good reason.

/raises hand, count me in on wondering how they are going to manage wrapping me back into their story. The city-state shit is so dead boring, doesn't matter what continent they send me to to do it and they finally introduced a fascinating story in ShB just to make it build to absolutely nothing to EW. Guess I'll wait for the day we can finally get to another reflection and the void for something interesting to happen again. I also look forward to meeting my besto friendo's avatar or something to that effect once we hit the Thirteenth properly. In the meantime we still have the remnants of Garlemald to see through which might be good and also the remaining Sundered Ascians who might still pop up here and there eventually.

[Kozh]

/raises hand, count me in on wondering how they are going to manage wrapping me back into their story. The city-state shit is so dead boring, doesn't matter what continent they send me to to do it and they finally introduced a fascinating story in ShB just to make it build to absolutely nothing to EW. Guess I'll wait for the day we can finally get to another reflection and the void for something interesting to happen again. I also look forward to meeting my besto friendo's avatar or something to that effect once we hit the Thirteenth properly. In the meantime we still have the remnants of Garlemald to see through which might be good and also the remaining Sundered Ascians who might still pop up here and there eventually.

The only interesting thing the city states/the Alliance can offer, for me, is to go at war with each other now that the common enemy is no longer exist. I don't care what they're fighting for; resources, territory, technology, etc. So long they destroy each other and the Scion are stuck because they pledge neutrality. And then as the WoL I'll just chill at New Worlds or Meracydia, or perhaps help Garlemald instead.

Sigh, Idk, I just want a story that isn't as preachy as EW is.

[Rulakir]

/raises hand, count me in on wondering how they are going to manage wrapping me back into their story. The city-state shit is so dead boring, doesn't matter what continent they send me to to do it and they finally introduced a fascinating story in ShB just to make it build to absolutely nothing to EW. Guess I'll wait for the day we can finally get to another reflection and the void for something interesting to happen again. I also look forward to meeting my besto friendo's avatar or something to that effect once we hit the Thirteenth properly. In the meantime we still have the remnants of Garlemald to see through which might be good and also the remaining Sundered Ascians who might still pop up here and there eventually.

I know Yoshi-P wants to be done with war stories and future tales are supposed to be adventures, but (and everyone knew this was going to be a problem after EW) exploring Eorzea just doesn't sound exciting after everything we've done. I don't have my hopes up that we're going to be seeing any sundered Ascians for a while (if ever), the LL wasn't encouraging on that front. I don't know that we'll be visiting another reflection so soon, however, I hope whenever we do that we get to see Emet's empire building handiwork. (Bonus points if he's brought back to narrate or, even better, as a ghostly companion like Ardbert.)

The 13th is probably the most interesting prospect to me, especially if fan theories are correct that Zenos' avatar is another shard of Azem. I had hoped for another soul merger, but I don't know how likely that is now because dYnAmIs. Corvos could be promising, but I'm not all that interested in Meracydia or the New World. I'm not sure what more there is to do in Garlemald that isn't just going to be some kind of repeat of the Ishgardian restoration. We lost out on a lot of potential there only showing up after the place had been devastated.

[KageTokage]

It would honestly feel a bit anti-climactic to me if the situation in Ilsabard with the rogue Garlean legions still occupying the provinces ended up just blowing over peacefully.

We were originally meant to have an entire expansion dedicated to sorting out matters with Garlemald, and that could still reasonably happen except we'd be helping the legions who chose to stand on the side of the Populares curb the threat of the imperialists who still desire to rule the continent with an iron fist. Desperation could lead to them becoming an even bigger threat then the empire originally was if Black Rose was any indication.

[Theodric]

I don't think it'd be a good idea for there to be a storyline involving the fantasy equivalent of Russians being hunted down and killed for their political views in the current climate.

I love Garlemald and wish we could have seen friendly relations forged much sooner but I wouldn't be surprised if the pursuit of 'war stories' is a major headache for the development team at this point.

[Teraq]

Frankly I am just plain curious what they're going to give us for 6.1–.5, because without a new expansion they probably can't give us entirely new MSQ zones that aren't Bozja-like instances. I have no idea what was up with their decision to spoiler out the name of the next dungeon, because at this point I need proper teasers to care. After the LL I still feel like I know basically nothing of what's to come plot-wise, and right now I am not feeling super invested (though I still enjoy the game for its gameplay and I am far from done with leveling classes, so there's that). I can hardly imagine something important enough that would warrant being so secretive unless it's something like (WOW SHAMELESS PERSONAL BIAS INCOMING) Seat of Sacrifice.

As for the political alignment discussion several pages back, I am on Brinne's "side" as well: I would call myself a progressive and a feminist and usually vote centre-left / democratic socialists, yet here we are. To be perfectly honest though I've never really looked at my tastes in fictional characters through a political lens (there is probably merit to do so though), I've just always been a villain fucenjoyer as far as I can remember; most of the characters I gravitate towards are horrible people but with such an angle that you can understand where they're coming from, and they are almost always antagonists in the story. I can probably count on one hand the number of favorite characters I have that didn't get their ass kicked by the hero. Bonus points for being part of a villain group dynamic, being shown to be regular human beings outside of being villains, and featuring in an arc where the protagonists team up with them to save the day. (You have one single guess as to who my favorite FFVII characters are btw.)

I also think the ancients succeeded the ridiculous 'test' via Zodiark's big darkness boner telling the Meteia "bullshit", playing Limp Bizkit on his phone, then walking off.

Hard agree on the Zenos/Hermes stuff and the Elpis sidequests. What's a headscratcher to me is all the people who came out of that thinking "Wow! Hermes is literally the only person in the world who feels! Everyone else is a cold unfeeling robot!"

Yeah this is exactly the bullshit I hate with Venat and Hermes, but also how can I blame them when it is what the plot apparently wants to present (but is terrible at presenting)? I mean, I don't actually hate Venat and Hermes as characters themselves. I low-key love the interpretation of Venat following the rules of Hermes's dumb test because she doesn't fundamentally disagree with him and the very experience of meeting a Future Human and finding them super cool and fun to hang out with for, like, a whole day has validated all her biases about her worldview. I am also totally fine with Hermes being a sad misanthropic asshole who wants to impose an Insane-Troll-Logic sadistic test on humanity because he is The Only Sad Person In The World Obviously, which is a great presentation of the cognitive bias of depression mixed with bitterness that has been festering for too long.

Except this isn't how the game seems to be presenting either. I am meant to believe these two jerkwads totally have a point and the Ancients uniformly sucked, with Hermes's line drawing a parallel between Elpis and his test for humanity and Venat's MartyrVision as obvious "gotcha"s against Ancients. I feel like they wanted to replicate the success of Emet's tragic backstory, except... there's something off about it for a lot of people, it seems. Personal opinion here, but I relate 10 times more to the guys who want to bring their people, society and civilisation back than to the dude overreacting to the cancellation of badly-designed concepts (which has been literally his job for... how many years?????). I mean, yes, there is a debate to be had with regards to sentient creations and how they are treated, but maybe you should have that debate (instead of being a purely professional, taciturn dude as he is plainly described to be in the MSQ) rather than unilaterally decide humanity is due for judgment day because HAH POETIC IRONY ISN'T IT.

Re: "ANCIENTS/RA-LA(they're the same tbqh) BAD BECAUSE SUICIDE": but is it bad though? We are talking about biologically immortal people who are aware of the cycle of souls and reincarnation. Am I supposed to think their culture of suicide on their own terms (and not forcing anyone to, i.e. Venat can live as she pleases if she wants to) is some sort of moral failing here? I honestly do not get it. Like, if the people on Ostrakon Strawmanos have decided they're done, then.......? idk, shrug??? This is something else that weirded me out about Hermes from the start. Couldn't relate to him being so anxious about Fandaniel. I mean, dude, this poor man has already had the terribly bad take of trusting you and recommending you while you are obviously not mentally fit for either your current job or your next job prospect, can't we just leave him alone now?
(This reminds me that early on in December I jokingly made the crack theory with a friend that the entire story was a petty plot from the incumbent Fandaniel who was really unhinged and wanted revenge on the rest of the Convocation so he decided to saddle them with the worst successor he could think of. Truly a brilliant mastermind.)

How is this still in debate? Objectively speaking, Venat kept critical information that sent the Ancients to certain damnation due to a judgment made on such an egregious show of narcissism that I wouldn't be surprised to find out she goes home everyday to her perfect lover: A mirror.

Brilliant post (and subsequent ones). I have to say you forgot to mention something else though: beside allowing mortal humans to name the planet after herself, she's also fond of declaring herself "the will of the planet" by the time you have your friendly little trial against her.

I mean... excuse me? Who made you the will of the planet? You're the will of the planet now huh aren't you? Oh okay.

This and even though we were barely formed and tiny on our first trip through, from there on out we are always tangible and correctly sized. Not complaining too hard because I love Elpis but...how? How can I even travel there through literal time using an aetheryte? Why would I not have to travel through the portal Elidibus makes us every time? At least they make an effort to explain why we can return to Ultima Thule anytime.

Honestly I'm just filing return trips to Elpis under disbelief-suspending MMORPG convenience, just like I could Hearthstone out of Zodiark's arena to get my glam on, pick flowers in Thavnair with the Vanaspati BGM going on, or the fact that every material we gather in Elpis should be technically huge – never mind that we probably shouldn't even have been able to time travel after destroying Ironworks Alexander in the Twinning.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: Zenos was hands down the best part of Endwalker and the most successful execution of its themes in all regards. Anyone who hated him after this expansion is wrong, objectively wrong!

My reaction to Zenos prior to EW had ranged from largely apathetic (4.0) to outright annoyed (5.0), but I can appreciate him just plain not giving a shit; the ultimate foil to Meteion.

He fully redeemed himself when he waltzed up at the edge of the universe to ask me why Meteion still lived. Hashtag #relatable.