Would removing clemency allow for a better pld?

[Lyth]

This is very similar to the problem that Inner Beast had. As long as you have an ability that costs you dps to use, the average player isn't going to want to use it. At the same time, you can't pretend like it doesn't exist defensively. In Clemency's case this is exacerbated by the fact that this expansion, Holy Vampiric Spirit/Holy Vampiric Circle now have a built in 400 potency lifesteal effect. And when you factor in the difference in MP costs (Clemency costs double the amount of Holy Vampiric Spirit/Circle), it looks like Clemency's primary value comes from spot healing another target.

It's fine for Clemency to stay. It makes sense for Knight/Paladin to be able to cast simple White Magic support spells. What they should do is get rid of the vampiric effects on Holy Spirit/Circle which make no sense thematically. Then, create a proc off of say Sheltron/Intervention that makes your next cast of Clemency instant and free. Now you have a natural way to top yourself off after mitigating a big hit. But you still have the option on reserve to sacrifice personal DPS to keep someone alive in a prog scenario. If they're worried about setting limits on healing output, just place an upper limit on the number of times you can get a free proc per minute.

[MistakeNot]

@Aurora what I meant by calculus is that when using clemency, we do it as emergency backup.
Just because someone is taking damage doesn’t mean we stop what we’re doing and use clemency.
What I’ve sound with nascent so far is, it’s more like dance partner.
I’m going to use my tank cooldown anyways, and if someone has taken damage (usually a sage for some reason), I just nascent them and continue without thinking about it.

Honestly I think this is a far better way for a tank to approach group support is in a way that fits into normal flow, which nascent does beautifully.
Whereas with clemency it’s something has to get really dicey before it’s time to even consider it, because we aren’t the healer, we are the tank, we tank and do damage.
For warrior, and hell, even drk, that flow isn’t impeded

For an average dungeon run, there is no reason to use clemency at all. The healing the healer(s) output will be enough. So no clemency "tax", or anything to think about.

Clemency is for when things go wrong, and then some lost dps is usually the least of your problems.
Like if everyone else in the group is dead and you have to solo the last 5% of a boss. Then clemency is very, very, useful. (Been there, done that.)

[Erik501]

Don't touch my clemency!!!! I have been able to prevent lots of wipes thanks to clemency because the healer died or got disconnected. I don't care if I have to sacrifice some DPS as a tank in an emergency situation in a stupid dungeon. You souldn't need it in raids or extremes anyway, and if you do then your team has way bigger problems than that supposed stupid tax on the PLD.

[Doragan]

I don't think removal of choice fixes anything. I would rather have a choice between something I will very rarely use and something common, rather than no choice at all. It only impacts the people that enjoyed that rarely used skill. I don't think removing fun out of the game, even if it isn't my own, is any good, honestly.

That's why I kinda miss the cross skill system. I really enjoyed using Stoneskin as PLD. I really miss the CNJ casting animation on them too.

And even if it was dumb fun, Cure on Lancer, too. I mean, the weapon floated and everything, it was so out of place, it was actually hilarious. But anyways.

Clemency has its uses. It may not be a cutting edge optimisation too for sure, but if at least a few people enjoy it, or that it saves a few runs, that's more than good enough for me.

[Derio]

Problem is the amount of niche skills PLD has. Skills like cover and shield bash.

Clemency is there because before EW PLD had no self sustain making it really bad in dungeons and clemency was your saving grace if a healer was just that bad and it could help you carry dungeon runs with bad healers.

I think PLD needs a soft rework to address some skill bloat and ablities. Divine veil not giving the PLD is still questioning because shake it off exists.

I dont think Clemency needs to be removed. If it does then it needs to be replaced with something better.

[DanielNegreanu_Adamantoise]

I agree with most of whats being said but I think a lot of ya'll can't hear what you're saying.
Its an ability that ideally isn't used at all... that isn't a good thing, can't you see that?

[MistakeNot]

Its an ability that ideally isn't used at all... that isn't a good thing, can't you see that?

But that isn't really true. In an ideal situation there is no need for Clemency, that is true. But in some non-ideal situations, Clemency is ideally used.

You might as well ask for Healer Limit Breaks to be removed from the game, because in an ideal situation there is no use for them. Yet in non-ideal situations they have saved many a group from a wipe.

[Lyth]

There isn't really a 'tax' for having access to Clemency. PLD has had one of if not the largest action count out of all the tanks since Stormblood. This expansion, they opted for the much safer route of upgrading animations on tanks rather than swapping out old actions for completely new ones. I think that you're going to see that trend continue over the next few expansions, given the focus on graphical updates. Which is fair, as some of the older actions on PLD and WAR date back to 1.x.

Shield Bash is even more niche, given the presence of Low Blow as a role action. If you had to cut out an action for space, you'd go after that first. But is there any harm in having access to it in the odd chance that you need it? Not really, because it's functionally a free 'extra action' slot above the average action count.

I don't see the point in cutting out these skills mid-expansion. A better goal would be to find ways to expand their usage such that they're less niche.

[Zarkovitch]

they could make 2-3 stacks ogcd it could be better

[Undeadfire]

Problem is the amount of niche skills PLD has. Skills like cover and shield bash.

I think PLD needs a soft rework to address some skill bloat and ablities. Divine veil not giving the PLD is still questioning because shake it off exists.

PLD has bigger problems than niche skills.

Rotation issues, opener issues, potency issues.