Would removing clemency allow for a better pld?

[Marxam]

IMO a better PLD has these things:

-Atonement changed to a trait and put to 3 stacks and applies MP/DMG to the next 3 weaponskills used.
-Clemency MP increased but instant cast or, ogcd but utilizing oath gauge with MP with slightly longer recast.
-Hallowed buff applied at the start of the animation and not the end.

The fate stay night swords I can take or leave it. Not a fan of the aesthetic but at least its thematically relevant unlike another sword tank job.

[aodhan_ofinnegain]

IMO a better PLD has these things:

-Atonement changed to a trait and put to 3 stacks and applies MP/DMG to the next 3 weaponskills used.
-Clemency MP increased but instant cast or, ogcd but utilizing oath gauge with MP with slightly longer recast.

None of these are better, if anything they are significantly worse, Atonement change removes any and all optimisation from PLDs rotation, preventing it from trying to keep the rotation under raid buffs.
Clemency is fine as it is, it doesn't need to be a frequently used skill, usually the only problem with Clemency is the players using it erroneously. Slapping extra cost onto Clemency for QoL is unnecessary.

-Hallowed buff applied at the start of the animation and not the end.

While it can be an issue, it typically comes down to player error rather than a skill error, as invulns shouldn't be an "oh shit" button, since by that point things are probably not gonna end well. Invulns are more effective as planned cooldowns.

The fate stay night swords I can take or leave it. Not a fan of the aesthetic but at least its thematically relevant unlike another sword tank job.

Yeah that's very much an each to their own, not every aesthetic is gonna be pleasing to everyone.

[dspguy]

I'd keep clemency. It gives PLD the capability of keeping a PT alive in a dungeon boss fight if the healer drops. Sort of a fun ability, IMO.

[Senden]

That would be terrible, Clemency is my time to shine in 5 mans when the healer dies. I've had a run where the healer was drunk and died to every boss at the first mechanic, it was really satisfying being able to both tank and heal myself and other dps throughout the run.

[Undeadfire]

Alright, you asked for it bud.

Clemency is part of what makes PLD the actual best tank in the game. I've had countless situations where I've been able to use that and other skills to help people hang on and get a fight done.

Clemency interrupts GCDs, only useful when a Healer is dead, otherwise provides nothing to the table. Healers can use O-GCDs stronger than Clemency without a GCD cost.

Cover is underrated, btw. There are a lot of effects in game that won't go through if the target takes 0 damage.

Most mechanics in raids punishes you for trying it, SE made sure you couldn't for most. Eden Savage, Pandae Savage Cover could do nothing than your own uptime benefit, any other mechanic straight out killed you. HG won't block debuffs than Damage down debuffs. And SE placed in mechanics for tanks as DPS obtains mechanics making it virtually impossible.

Some folks are too hung up on this idea of everything having to do DPS. Maybe they should stick to that realm of job to begin with. At the very least, look at playing one of the other tanks with more DPS in mind, like GNB.

You can't clear Savage/Ultimate content 1st weeks without solid DPS, it's impossible. SE designed them around making sure every job is able to clear with their DPS outputs. Ninja was horribly useless for 2-3 weeks in Edens Gate Savage. Pld was near useless in Pandae Savage 1st week. Dungeons are meant to be cleared by everyone in the community, it's how they're designed. Speed is always going to be 1st choice if offered, majority do not wish 30-40 min dungeons.

To any that say a healer's output will be enough, you haven't seen what some of them are (not) doing these days. They're trying to favor DPS in dungeons because they're told that's what works in raids. I've seen all kinds of missteps from SCH not using soil to WHM burning afflatus stacks IN BETWEEN PULLS for that one lily shot. I was working on my GNB's tank you achievement and I did most of that with a friend who I can trust to heal me. I've now shelved the job until next expansion.

That's how it's always worked, and works in Dungeons. Here I'll make a brain dead example. DPS Healer vs Pure healer: Wall pull with DPS Healer, pack dies in roughly 30-50s, loads of MP to spare and cooldowns to spare. Wall pull with Pure healer, you waste almost 2 minutes fighting the same mobs and individually run out of resources for the next wall pull. Hello? DPS saves resources, it saves time, it saves cooldowns, it stops mistakes. Sage cannot operate without DPS, Whm loses all it's MP without Holy stuns and fast kills, Ast/Sch are mechanically designed to DPS. Healing received 20-30% cut making DPS all the more worth it.

If I don't understand what you're talking about, you need to make better sense than trying to gate keep.

[Deveryn]

Alright, you asked for it bud.

-snip

If I don't understand what you're talking about, you need to make better sense than trying to gate keep.

No, I honestly didn't ask for this.
I said "Good Day."

gate keep. lol. Please try this nonsense on someone else. Good Day! (Buen Dia. Basta por favor. No me interese)

[Arohk]

Clemecy is super good as it is.

[NeoDivinity]

Do you guys even play this game?

Most of these discussions does not even make sense, Clemency breaking a combo isnt an excuse to remove it what the hell. Would be nice if you could use it and not break a combo but just as every situational ability you will only use it in specific situations. Not everything in your kit should be aimed to increase damage, specially on a TANK role.

Also give me a break, you will amost never target someone else Nascent Flesh if the healer is not dead, and even if you do need to use it on a very split second situation you'll probably also lose some damage due to retargeting and stuff.

Having Clemency isnt 1 less damage GCD because without it you won't have an additional one anyway, if one thing should be removed or buffed is Circle of Scorn damage and Cover gauge cost of all the abilities these are just trash right now.

Now if your perspective of a PLD tool kit is nothing besides dungeons and ex primals, of course you'll never find a use for everything it has to offer. Hells most PLD don't even use Passage of Arms because they actually don't know they can weave it and the buff keeps going for a few secs.
I can't even count how many times on Savage or Utimate progs Clemency came in clutch to repair a mistake and helping to push a phase or even saving the entire run.

[Luin]

Clemency, the reason for taxing pld.
Looked great when I started the job, but now I know how counter intuitive it is, it feels bad to use.

When you use clemency, you are sacrificing damage.
It breaks combos, some healers resent you for using it, some might expect you to use it, but either way it feels terrible to use.

It’s a completely different feeling than verraising or swiftcast raising a dead healer as a dps, that is satisfying. Clemency just always feels bad, even when the healer dies and you use it to keep yourself and the dps alive, you’re thinking to yourself, “I could be nascent flashing the dps without sacrifice”

Like, there are several pld “utility” abilities that seems completely unnecessary and counter-intuitive.

I’m just left thinking now, why not fundamentally rethink pld and clemency?

It’s not that I don’t enjoy pld. I actually am ok with it’s damage and like the rotation, it just irks me to think that pld is being held back by an ability that most every pld comes to learn to not use, or to hate using.

If clemency were simply removed, people could stop the whole “clemency tax” nonsense, and just make a much better pld job, eh?

clemency isnt a tax because paladins almost never use clemency. It's just a flavor ability that happens to be useful in prog and casual content.

[DanielNegreanu_Adamantoise]

clemency isnt a tax because paladins almost never use clemency. It's just a flavor ability that happens to be useful in prog and casual content.

Not until endwalker could anyone even consider this true.
The damage has been in the back for the longest time, no self-healing until endwalker.
Even when I say no self-healing til EW you get half the plds saying “you joking right?”
It’s not hard to see the theory behind the job.
No self heal combo, no self-healing whatsoever for ARR HS SB ShB, unless you look at clemency as part of its mit toolkit.

Only in EW could you possibly consider it “flavor”. It’s an artifact of and old deprecated idea like Shield Bash/cover/poa.
Not only that but the damage is behind on purpose. Pld and war aren’t 4-5 points behind gnb and blk on accident. Pld didn’t become as tanky as gnb until EW.

So this whole time pld has been kept at the back not on accident, with no self-healing, but because on the support tank theory.
The job is absolutely taxed for clemency and they don’t treat it as flavor.
It’s been painfully obvious before EW, but even now still is.
As tanky as a gnb, with the dps of a war, for an ability that you ideally never use.