Sundering stuff established in the Q&A

[KizuyaKatogami]

The whole point of a mediating figure is that they are an objective third party, it does not take a genius to see that Elidibus cannot be an objective third party. He agreed with summoning Zodiark in the first place, not to mention the fact that he serves as Zodiark's heart which makes him the will/driving force behind Zodiark as far as I am aware, therefore how can he be a third party if he is so intertwined with one side of the debate, it doesn't make any sense for him to be so.

Sure it isn't sated as such in game but it isn't a leap of logic to see how Elidibus would fail to be an effective or unbiased mediator following his becoming Zodiark's heart.

Someone else already stated it but just to reiterate, Zodiark was a necessary solution in the grand scheme of thing and one that didn’t seem to have many in opposition to it. Like Spectre said i believe it was, we need to learn to separate future selves from past. They have no ties to their future selves at this point, they’re their own person. Considering his only goal that we can see is the salvation of the star and it’s people it’s a pretty unbiased account.

Something else to bring up since i’m seeing some talk about tempering. Keep in mind that even the tempered convocation disagreed on the 3rd set of sacrifices at first, so the tempering seems to be close to non-existent in all honesty.

Correct. Lahabrea grew worse with time. I have not and will not dispute that fact. You may notice that I even said as much my post a moment ago. That being said, at least a couple of the NPCs in Elpis do make reference to Lahabrea not exactly being the most sane individual. Even putting that aside, there's a whole prison filled with experiments that would be (and are stated to be) considered abominable even by Ancient standards. When I say off his rocker, I don't mean the raving lunatic we saw in ARR in Heavensward. I mean mentally unstable and seemingly lacking in a properly functioning moral compass as relates to the rest of his people.

I maintain that Lahabrea's greatly affected mental faculties as of ARR/Heavensward mean we should not use him as an example of Zodiark's effect upon the Ancients, as his zealot-like devotion appears to stem mostly from his own damaged mind rather than any actual primal influence.

While i certainly think he is probably still grieving for his wife, i dont think its entirely a matter of being sane. Keeping in mind Yoshi P attributed Lahabrea to himself in that in the end he's a very hard working individual...and then also remembering back to that Elidibus vision we had of him telling Elidibus to go outside and relax etc which presumably happens after the events of Elpis, i dont think anything so far points to him being crazy. As for Pandemonium, i think people just look at it from the outside. The way i see it, it's another chance for the more dangerous creations to run free in their little domains and still help research.

[Lauront]

Correct. Lahabrea grew worse with time. I have not and will not dispute that fact. You may notice that I even said as much my post a moment ago. That being said, at least a couple of the NPCs in Elpis do make reference to Lahabrea not exactly being the most sane individual. Even putting that aside, there's a whole prison filled with experiments that would be (and are stated to be) considered abominable even by Ancient standards. When I say off his rocker, I don't mean the raving lunatic we saw in ARR in Heavensward. I mean seemingly lacking in a properly functioning moral compass as relates to the rest of his people.

Fine, but I suppose I don't really consider studying failed arcane creations to be the result of the lack of a properly functioning moral compass - but then again I wouldn't make such an inference of scientists in our own world studying a range of subjects many would consider unsavoury. However, I'll agree that it meant he is not indicative of his people as a whole.

I maintain that Lahabrea's greatly affected mental faculties as of ARR/Heavensward mean we should not use him as an example of Zodiark's effect upon the Ancients, as his zealot-like devotion appears to stem mostly from his own damaged mind rather than any actual primal influence.

I don't think we can dismiss the primal's influence, because tempering itself is at least strongly implied to correlate inversely with maintaining identity and memory, both of which Emet-Selch did. Lahabrea's predicament is related to his penchant for body hopping with reckless abandon. That, combined with the tempering, appears to be what they're pushing as the reason for Lahabrea as he appears in ARR/HW.

[Absimiliard]

I don't recall any references touching upon his sanity as such - the nature of his work alone is not sufficient for me to conclude anything about his sanity, any more than it would to conclude similar about the sanity of scientists studying all manner of unsavoury phenomena. The entire point of the facility is to learn from the failed creations.

Fair enough. Perhaps I am misinterpreting some text somewhere? As my understanding of Lahabrea's research was that it was of the "pulling the wings off a butterfly to analyze its reactions" variety. Failed creations or not, it's difficult not to look at "oh, so he's actually ripping sentient lifeforms apart for study purposes" as lacking in a functioning moral compass.

I don't think we can dismiss the primal's influence, because tempering itself is at least strongly implied to correlate inversely with maintaining identity and memory, both of which Emet-Selch did. Lahabrea's predicament is related to his penchant for body hopping with reckless abandon. That, combined with the tempering, appears to be what they're pushing as the reason for Lahabrea as he appears in ARR/HW.

I'm not saying to dismiss it. I'm saying Lahabrea's mental instability makes it difficult to tell how much is Zodiark's influence and how much is just him having run himself into the ground. This is why Emet-Selch seems a better candidate for the criteria put forth in the prior discussion.

[EaraGrace]

Someone else already stated it but just to reiterate, Zodiark was a necessary solution in the grand scheme of thing and one that didn’t seem to have many in opposition to it. Like Spectre said i believe it was, we need to learn to separate future selves from past. They have no ties to their future selves at this point, they’re their own person. Considering his only goal that we can see is the salvation of the star and it’s people it’s a pretty unbiased account.

We can certainly keep in mind the effects of time, but we can’t simply wash our hands of the people they become. Especially when it directly ties into things that made up who they were. The question is whether Elidibus, being both involved in Zodiarks summoning and acting as the heart (a role that left him changed utterly), could truly mediate the conflict over the third sacrifices. Given all the above, I think the answer is simply no. Not because Elidibus is lacking in some way, but simply as a consequence of who he was after everything.

While i certainly think he is probably still grieving for his wife, i dont think its entirely a matter of being sane. Keeping in mind Yoshi P attributed Lahabrea to himself in that in the end he's a very hard working individual...and then also remembering back to that Elidibus vision we had of him telling Elidibus to go outside and relax etc which presumably happens after the events of Elpis, i dont think anything so far points to him being crazy. As for Pandemonium, i think people just look at it from the outside. The way i see it, it's another chance for the more dangerous creations to run free in their little domains and still help research.

What kind of person Lahabrea is at the the time of Pandaemonium largely remains to be seen. However, abandoning his son to the wayside after the death of Athena doesn’t reflect well on him. Not to mention there’s the issue that the facility he runs is only accessible with a teleporter that is overgrown with weeds and the “Lahabrea surely would’ve acted if something was amiss” line from the faculty he sent. I’ll be pleasantly surprised if he isn’t a jerk to be quite honest.

[Lauront]

Fair enough. Perhaps I am misinterpreting some text somewhere? As my understanding of Lahabrea's research was that it was of the "pulling the wings off a butterfly to analyze its reactions" variety. Failed creations or not, it's difficult not to look at "oh, so he's actually ripping sentient lifeforms apart for study purposes" as lacking in a functioning moral compass.

We're not given anything like that level of detail. The facility takes creations which were too difficult or dangerous for other researchers to succeed in perfecting to learn from that and provide a more tightly controlled environment to that end. Our knowledge is limited to these beings being quite dangerous and managed through interment if necessary, so that they could not get out and wreak havoc on the world, or need to be put down; the facility has safety protocols that would result in its detachment from the world if a risk were to arise or its destruction. Lahabrea is credited with taking the flawed Phoinix concept, which other researchers abandoned, and devising the perfected phoenix. Even that is simply an arcane entity at the end of the day, as per Hades's short story (a soul wandering the Underworld accidentally attaches to it but that's the extent of it). I can't say I see much of an issue with experimentation upon these things (the most monstrous of arcane creations) and to me what distinguishes this facility is more how dangerous the creations are, as opposed to the mere act of experimentation being that unorthodox say, compared to Elpis. And even then the philosophy driving it is this:

Athena ever drove home the fact that our subjects should be treated with the utmost care. 'Twould be best if we could see them confined once again rather than disposed of like beasts gone feral.

To me it seems consistent with what we saw in Elpis, other than how dangerous the concepts are and that they didn't want these to perish by going on feral rampages.

I'm not saying to dismiss it. I'm saying Lahabrea's mental instability makes it difficult to tell how much is Zodiark's influence and how much is just him having run himself into the ground. This is why Emet-Selch seems a better candidate for the criteria put forth in the prior discussion.

I agree with that - I suppose the way I'd phrase it is that Lahabrea is the worst-case scenario and Emet-Selch the best-case of how 12k years of tempering's effects might affect an ancient. There's still other factors at play, like the mere effect of operating under such circumstances (alienated from their people, the sheer isolation, committing acts they consider gruesome on some level, being disembodied etc.), but insofar as retaining independence of will, Emet-Selch does appear to do that, enough so to deviate from the plan.

[KizuyaKatogami]

We can certainly keep in mind the effects of time, but we can’t simply wash our hands of the people they become. Especially when it directly ties into things that made up who they were. The question is whether Elidibus, being both involved in Zodiarks summoning and acting as the heart (a role that left him changed utterly), could truly mediate the conflict over the third sacrifices. Given all the above, I think the answer is simply no. Not because Elidibus is lacking in some way, but simply as a consequence of who he was after everything.



What kind of person Lahabrea is at the the time of Pandaemonium largely remains to be seen. However, abandoning his son to the wayside after the death of Athena doesn’t reflect well on him. Not to mention there’s the issue that the facility he runs is only accessible with a teleporter that is overgrown with weeds and the “Lahabrea surely would’ve acted if something was amiss” line from the faculty he sent. I’ll be pleasantly surprised if he isn’t a jerk to be quite honest.

We can wash our hands of it when it has quite literally nothing to do with the convo at large. The conversation is could Elidibus mediate said conflict, not could he mediate it 12,000 years after the fact. For all intents and purposes there's very little that suggests he could not at the time of pre-sundering. Of course though, whether Venat was actually open to reason remains to be seen. I'd suggest not as she chose to keep it all a secret.

As for Lahabrea, i honestly would have thought especially after Fourche people would stop being so quick to judge but this forum continues to amaze me in regards to this. People handle grief in different ways, as we have seen time and time again in this game. We also see again, how he seems to care for Elidibus' well-being, and this is after Elpis. I dont think it reflects inherently badly on him, otherwise i think most parents in 14 would be considered horrible lol. People seem to forget all the cutscenes and short stories we have giving us some insight on Lahabrea.

[Lyth]

Emet's account in 'Ere Our Curtain Falls' fairly clearly illustrates that Elidibus the primal who emerged from Zodiark to see to it that the Ancients 'made the right choice' (as Elidibus himself put it) was a very different entity from the enthusiastic Amaurotian boy who offered himself up in sacrifice to Zodiark. It sounds like he had already started to flake off fragments of his personality and memories as a mortal even from the time when he first emerged.

As for Lahabrea, I think that to really understand his descent into madness, we'll need to understand his relationship with Athena. Hopefully her soul hasn't been grafted on to the family dog.

[Absimiliard]

Just gonna....

[KizuyaKatogami]

Emet's account in 'Ere Our Curtain Falls' fairly clearly illustrates that Elidibus the primal who emerged from Zodiark to see to it that the Ancients 'made the right choice' (as Elidibus himself put it) was a very different entity from the enthusiastic Amaurotian boy who offered himself up in sacrifice to Zodiark. It sounds like he had already started to flake off fragments of his personality and memories as a mortal even from the time when he first emerged.

As for Lahabrea, I think that to really understand his descent into madness, we'll need to understand his relationship with Athena. Hopefully her soul hasn't been grafted on to the family dog.

If i recall the direct quote from there states as times tides affected him, meaning it wasn’t something that happened immediately. Either way, i think in the grand scheme of things Elidibus was more of an unbiased source compared to either Venat or Emet. As far as Lahabrea’s madness goes, unless they retcon it it’s something that took quite awhile to take root. Again, i’m curious on how they’ll do it seeing as that he seemed relatively fine in the Elidibus flashback which would be post- Pandemonium. In the end though we may just get another twins situation where the child and father make up at the end. I remember all the conspiracy theories about Eden and it turned out to be a fairly simple storyline.

[EaraGrace]

We can wash our hands of it when it has quite literally nothing to do with the convo at large. The conversation is could Elidibus mediate said conflict, not could he mediate it 12,000 years after the fact. For all intents and purposes there's very little that suggests he could not at the time of pre-sundering. Of course though, whether Venat was actually open to reason remains to be seen. I'd suggest not as she chose to keep it all a secret.

Ah the immediate shift to “Venat must be the problem,” which totally absolves all other actors of their own failures. When members of Venats group were waved off and ignored exactly what was Elidibus doing to “mediate?” When the decision to make the third sacrifice came down even without the rift in Amaurot resolved what was he doing? And don’t even start with the secret stuff, we’ve had that conversation in the past and you refused to see the reasons for why that was necessary.

As for Lahabrea, i honestly would have thought especially after Fourche people would stop being so quick to judge but this forum continues to amaze me in regards to this. People handle grief in different ways, as we have seen time and time again in this game. We also see again, how he seems to care for Elidibus' well-being, and this is after Elpis. I dont think it reflects inherently badly on him, otherwise i think most parents in 14 would be considered horrible lol. People seem to forget all the cutscenes and short stories we have giving us some insight on Lahabrea.

Cant wait for the scene where Lahabrea gets in his knees and begs for Erichthonios forgiveness, if we’re following the Fourchenault arc. Totally something someone would do when they did the right thing. And I don’t believe “handling grief” requires abandoning your child, defending that with the “he’s going through a hard time” defense is just wrong.