Sundering stuff established in the Q&A

[KizuyaKatogami]

Both are extreme by necessity. Zodiark was the most powerful being to exist in Etheirys and Meteion the universe (that we know of, there’s of course other the chance future developments change things). Accomplishing both restraining Zodiark and giving humanity the chance to fight against Meteion we’re both solved but the Sundering. If she succeeds humanity and all life flourishes. If she fails, the universe ends. To me, I see her actions as not kind or particularly good (as in fun, enjoyable, etc.) , but necessary. Sundering the planet, and I know I’m not popular for saying it, was to help humanity. In this way it’s not evil.



Yes it was very ostentatious. And yknow what, I’d say find someone who wouldn’t refer to themselves like that. Whether out of necessity or a simply a product of becoming a primal. Elidibus certainly didn’t pass that test.



Either Sunder or accept death, which is better to you Theodoric. If the latter is more moral to you I’ll respect that. But let’s lay the dilemma out on the table.



Oh now she’s responsible for the Rejoinings! Leaving a crack for Emet somehow means that she’s the one responsible, despite resisting the Rejoinings and failing seven times. She totally forced Emet and Lahabrea and Eldiibus to kill those people. She totally knew Emet would be with Lahabrea and Elidibus at that moment, knew they would escape and manipulated them to kill billions.

Totally.

She relied on said rejoinings though, that’s one of the major flaws in her plan. She required events to play out in such a specific manner. If not, who knows what would have happened. She needed Elidibus,Emet, etc to play their specific roles. Hell, had Elidibus not been on the First, her entire plan would be screwed as we needed him to even give us that time travel in the first place.

[Alleluia]

She relied on said rejoinings though, that’s one of the major flaws in her plan. She required events to play out in such a specific manner. If not, who knows what would have happened.

Isn't that probably the point, though? As Elidibus says, you can't change the past b/c your present is built on it. The present where everyone is currently alive and not a self destructing society, though it is under threat from the remnants of the past.

Venat could have taken a chance on a future that was completely unknown, maybe. I mean, if she hadn't sundered the world and neutered Zodiark, literally who knows what would have happened? It was a devil you know vs the devil you don't situation. The classic question for time travel stories: do you let events play out as you know they are "supposed" to or not? She knew that the end result of the sundering timeline seemed to result in people who had a unique perspective to understand suffering; who had a chance of ending Metieon's threat. And she assessed the ancients, as they were, to be incapable of ultimately surviving; an opinion Hades later affirms in Ultima Thule when he says "Our methods would not have carried us this far."

Yes, she could have tried to change that. I, personally, wish the timeline had branched instead of looping, with an alternate timeline where we did just that. Tried to avoid the sundering and saved the Ancients as they are. Meteion asks us to do so. Hythlodeaus tells us that its their problem to fix, implying it is a problem that they're going to tackle. Venat, as well, talks about averting things. Hades refuses to accept our present as his future, and I didn't want him to go through it, either. Elpis is full of so much hopeful sentiment that ultimately proves futile. It turns out we're just watching people doomed to die go through the motions and I kinda hate it.

But Venat was faced with a choice: To go with the unknown where maybe she can save her people as they are, even though signs point to them going down a path that will ultimately doom them all (Mr. "when we knew naught but bliss!" with his nostalgia goggles); Or to go with the path she knows for a fact seems like its working. She chose to put her trust in us and our path. Its not kind to anyone, even herself, but it is pragmatic. She honestly thinks its their best chance. And, ultimately, the other two representatives of the Ancients seem to agree with her: Hyth encouraging us to protect the sealing brand on the moon, Hades saying her method worked out better than how their own would have. Not that that means that they can't all be wrong and there wasn't actually another way, but in the end, her way *did* work. And that was the goal.


And, as a side note, saying she's ultimately responsible for the rejoinings is kinda blame shifting. Everyone is responsible for their own actions. She didn't make the Unsundered go through with their rejoining plan. If she had free will to go a different way at any point and not sunder people, they too had the option to not Rejoin. Even if tempering is a thing that compelled the unsundered to do it (and I'm not entirely sure anymore that it was), the sundered ascians could have stepped in and rebelled or something. Either everyone had free will here or no one does.

[KageTokage]

Elpis is full of so much hopeful sentiment that ultimately proves futile. It turns out we're just watching people doomed to die go through the motions and I kinda hate it.

That's one of the main reasons why I wish they had opted for a present day Elpis over the time travel shenanigans.

Even if everything has to play out the same way by necessity, it just left me with a more sour taste thinking about what could have been had history managed to change; had we had a world with no Final Days or no unsundered Ascians misleading the sundered from the very beginning.

I tend to only find the concepts of time travel/fate interesting in stories where things are allowed to change for better or worse...which by extension made me really dislike Mikoto's Echo nonsense in the Bozja storyline which ultimately amounted to virtually nothing.

[thegreatonemal]

That's one of the main reasons why I wish they had opted for a present day Elpis over the time travel shenanigans.

Even if everything has to play out the same way by necessity, it just left me with a more sour taste thinking about what could have been had history managed to change; had we had a world with no Final Days or no unsundered Ascians misleading the sundered from the very beginning.

We already know what that world would be like. Like the final part of the dead ends dungeon, a world with no meaning and purpose for the people living on it.

[jameseoakes]

We already know what that world would be like. Like the final part of the dead ends dungeon, a world with no meaning and purpose for the people living on it.

We don't know that would happen, it seems very unfair to say that without misery society is doomed to fail.

[Alleluia]

We already know what that world would be like. Like the final part of the dead ends dungeon, a world with no meaning and purpose for the people living on it.

Kage said "had history managed to change". In theory, our influence would avoid those things b/c we'd make them unnecessary, having somehow set the Ancient society on a path to potentially thrive and avoid becoming a dead end. Left to their own devices and unimpeded, yeah they were on the path to a bad end. But that wouldn't have necessarily been the situation if we'd managed to branch the timelines through our intercession.

Or it still might have been. In-universe, who can say? Even if, meta-wise, a branching timeline by necessity would have avoided them becoming a Dead End b/c there'd narratively be no point to doing it, otherwise.

[Veloran]

And, as a side note, saying she's ultimately responsible for the rejoinings is kinda blame shifting. Everyone is responsible for their own actions. She didn't make the Unsundered go through with their rejoining plan.

She let Emet live, knowing he would go on to form the Ascians and do the rejoinings. If she didn't want them to happen she should have just sundered him. This isn't even purely a "history refused to change" thing either, because we're told that she intentionally made that choice.

[Alleluia]

She let Emet live, knowing he would go on to form the Ascians and do the rejoinings. If she didn't want them to happen she should have just sundered him. This isn't even purely a "history refused to change" thing either, because we're told that she intentionally made that choice.

Yes, b/c the history we came from had him alive and doing what he did. And, as I said, she didn't force him to do the Rejoining plan. He still made that choice on his own, assuming tempering allowed him a choice at all. She just didn't do something that would stop him. She allowed history to play out how it was "supposed" to b/c it was the only path she knew of that would possibly get us to the good ending of mankind surviving. How does this counter do anything, but support what I said?

Not only did she know about the Rejoinings when she left Emet-Selch alive, her plan hinged upon his actions and she tried to allow him a second chance to live because she felt bad about the part he was manipulated into playing. To say that Venat has basically no issues with sacrificing lives, whether directly or by proxy, is about as text as it can be at this point. If you find that abhorrent, then you find Venat herself abhorrent.

You are saying both that she felt great guilt about the role she let Emet-Selch live out to play, and also that she felt no guilt whatsoever about messing with peoples' lives. This seems contradictory.

[tokinokanatae]

You are saying both that she felt great guilt about the role she let Emet-Selch live out to play, and also that she felt no guilt whatsoever about messing with peoples' lives. This seems contradictory.

No, I believe Venat does in general feel very sad when confronted with meaningless death or cruelty. It's just that sadness has nothing to do with any of her actions and doesn't factor into her motivations. She can be "sad" that the Ancients are too blind to follow her path and still kill them. She can be "sad" that she's mentally torturing a fundamentally kind man that hates what he feels he has to do, but still manipulate him into doing it. She can be "sad" over the lives lost in war, famine, and disease, but still create a world where all those things happen regularly.

[Alleluia]

No, I believe Venat does in general feel very sad when confronted with meaningless death or cruelty. It's just that sadness has nothing to do with any of her actions and doesn't factor into her motivations. She can be "sad" that the Ancients are too blind to follow her path and still kill them. She can be "sad" that she's mentally torturing a fundamentally kind man that hates what he feels he has to do, but still manipulate him into doing it. She can be "sad" over the lives lost in war, famine, and disease, but still create a world where all those things happen regularly.

And how is feeling sad the same as having "basically no issues", exactly? Is she callous or not?

And I did notice the quotes around "sad", implying she doesn't actually feel that emotion sincerely, but if that's the case then why bother with making sure Hades got a second chance to live(/help his friend/confront Meteion/whatever the point you want to assume his appearance in Ultima Thule had) as some kind of penance for a guilt she didn't sincerely feel? .

And isn't that act letting that sadness "factor into her motivations"? Like, she did it precisely b/c she felt badly, if we're accepting your premise.