Sundering stuff established in the Q&A

[tokinokanatae]

And how is feeling sad the same as having "basically no issues", exactly? Is she callous or not?

Her emotions don't tie into her actions, so she doesn't have issues doing those things. She sees "feeling bad" as an acceptable price to pay as long as her actions lead to the end she desires. In that regard, no sacrifice of lives is too great as long as mankind, in one form or another, lives on.

Maybe I'm being too vague? Most normal people hesitate to do the sort of drastic actions Venat does--even Hermes has an obvious tipping point if you look at the report scene--with the suffering that ensues. Venat does not. That is callous. It doesn't matter how much she cries prettily as the Sundered stands over the dead body of their mother, because feeling that way will never stay her hand if she feels the cruelty she inflicts has a result that is worth it.

EDIT: As for her actions, RE: Emet-Selch, it's not like Venat is cruel for the sake of being cruel. She was dead and Emet-Selch's soul was half-faded. Offering a small kindness when it's within her power to do so and won't impact her larger design is not something out of character for her. We can see that in her escorting Minfilia's soul back to the Source, when it would have been just fine in the aetherial sea of the First.

[Alleluia]

Her emotions don't tie into her actions, so she doesn't have issues doing those things. She sees "feeling bad" as an acceptable price to pay as long as her actions lead to the end she desires. In that regard, no sacrifice of lives is too great as long as mankind, in one form or another, lives on.

Maybe I'm being too vague? Most normal people hesitate to do the sort of drastic actions Venat does--even Hermes has an obvious tipping point if you look at the report scene--with the suffering that ensues. Venat does not. That is callous. It doesn't matter how much she cries prettily as the Sundered stands over the dead body of their mother, because feeling that way will never stay her hand if she feels the cruelty she inflicts has a result that is worth it.

I don't think we have any evidence that Venat didn't hesitate. We are right there with her as she tries to avert the Final Days and avoid having to sunder anyone at all. And we see her reaction when we tell her what happened in the future in the first place, saying she thinks it doesn't sound like something she'd have done b/c she'd have relied on the 14 or whatever she said. Like, she didn't just jump into the sundering plan as a first resort and with no compunctions. She came to see it as something she had to do in order for mankind to ultimately survive an extinction level event.

That's not being callous. You yourself acknowledge she feels sadness for what she introduced to the world. And she cuts herself no slack in our final conversation with her. That's not "having no issues". That's having issues, but still doing it b/c it was the only course that might work, as far as she or any of us know.

"In that regard, no sacrifice of lives is too great as long as mankind, in one form or another, lives on."

I mean, she wasn't the one sacrificing lives. Again, the Ascians weren't forced to do the rejoinings. And she does stop them when she feels she can, like the First. And she opposed the third phase of Zodiark's sacrifices. Venat isn't directly sacrificing lives. And you can argue indirectly she is, by sundering ppl and giving them shorter lifespans, but considering the alternative seems to have ultimately been extinction, I can't really agree. Yes, her actions made life harder. But the alternative, as far as she or we are aware, was life ending all together.

[Skyborne]

We are right there with her as she tries to avert the Final Days and avoid having to sunder anyone at all.

Huh? Did my memories of EW already fall out of my brain? Or are you talking about Ktsis where we failed to stop Hermes/Meteion? After that whole thing she decides she'll gather some trusted followers, but it doesn't seem like she did anything to stop the Final Days from occuring in the first place -- that they showed or told us, anyway. One of my biggest gripes, since they really wanted to sell me on her being a good person who tried her best. They only went for the Answers AMV where she tries to talk to the 'nostalgic boomer' strawmen after the Final Days already hit...

The hill that my corpse will fester on is that the ascians were well within their rights to correct what they saw as a huge mistake born of Hydaelyn's fear of Zodiark's power, and to defy fate as has been the way in many FF games. They and Ardbert & co were the 'dark mirrors' and the actual Warriors of Darkness to the WoL/Scions, who were also within their rights to fight back and defy fate.　Not to mention that those calamities could be thought of as 'toughening up' people as She wanted... I think this has been said a trillion times by others though.

Brinne's post below makes me think of that JP character poll comment... 'she's co-conspirators with Hermes, isn't she?' imo that's where it nosedived for me. It's like teaching a child to swim by throwing him into the ocean in the middle of the night, then sighing and giving up on him when he washes up half-alive and with an intense phobia of all water... these kids in the shallow end of the pool with their water wings are much more resilient!

[Alleluia]

Huh? Did my memories of EW already fall out of my brain? Or are you talking about Ktsis where we failed to stop Hermes/Meteion?

Not just Ktsis, but before that. Her entire goal once we told her the future was that we were trying to figure out how the Final Days happened in order to avoid them. None of the three ancients, Venat included, accepted the Final Days as a foregone conclusion. She even sounds like she has plans to continue to try to avert them after the memory wipe, though I'm sure at that point she was also thinking about how the Hydaelyn plan could be put into action. But, yes, before that she was trying to avoid the apocalypse and therefore avoid having to sunder anyone.

[Brinne]

Not just Ktsis, but before that. Her entire goal once we told her the future was that we were trying to figure out how the Final Days happened in order to avoid them. None of the three ancients, Venat included, accepted the Final Days as a foregone conclusion. She even sounds like she has plans to continue to try to avert them after the memory wipe, though I'm sure at that point she was also thinking about how the Hydaelyn plan could be put into action. But, yes, before that she was trying to avoid the apocalypse and therefore avoid having to sunder anyone.

Yes, before she hears our stories of the future, and before she hears Meteion's report. Venat herself states that something drastic must have changed her mind, since her initial instinct is to, yes, stop the Final Days altogether - and she notes that that doesn't seem to be the priority of her future self. After getting to know us and hearing Meteion's report:

Regardless of how we proceed, if we are to permanently avert the Final Days, we must be equal to Hermes's challenge. We must prove that mankind is worthy to exist. And this hinges, I think, on how we confront the all-consuming despair that accompanies a senseless and seemingly inevitable end.

She fundamentally actually agrees with the premise of Hermes's test, that mankind's right to live is not a given, but something that must be "proven." And she decides that worthiness will hinge on subjecting them to absolute despair and seeing how they respond. In this moment, she more or less strongly implies that's made up her mind to allow Hermes's test to happen, and her strategy is to do her best to prepare people to simply endure it - which is even symbolically reflected in the montage, where she walks past the first Ancient being killed and does nothing to interfere.

[Rulakir]

Or to go with the path she knows for a fact seems like its working. She chose to put her trust in us and our path.

I understand, but I can't accept it. There was no evidence that the WoL's future was 'working' when we had to go to extreme lengths of time travel because we had no idea what was causing the Final Days or how to stop it after 12k years. This is certainly not a path I would consider to have been remotely successful. The fact that Venat put all her eggs in the WoL's basket, frankly, shows poor judgment much like her sundering of the world (so I suppose it's still in character). It was always a gamble even if she did try to stack the odds.

I mean, she wasn't the one sacrificing lives. Again, the Ascians weren't forced to do the rejoinings. And she does stop them when she feels she can, like the First.

Except she was. People not only had to die for her they had to give up their souls for her. It's just another aspect of her hypocrisy. There also isn't any evidence she was willing or able to save the shards. They were likely always going to be collateral damage. The First is particularly tricky because the events there shape the WoL into becoming the person she met in Elpis. Her preventing the Flood of Light would dramatically change the course of history. At worst the WoL dies in the 8UC (which happened), at best there's no soul merger with Ardbert, Emet & Elidibus survive, and Fandaniel is prevented from acting upon his plans until a day the WoL faces the unsundered in a different scenario. Now that I think about it, she could've 'forestalled the coming doom' of the return of the Final Days if she had nipped the Flood of Light in the bud.

[Brinne]

I feel like some of the back and forth, and citing of quotes and dialogue, becomes confused because Venat goes through a development arc in Elpis - her mindset when we meet her at the beginning is not the same as it is when she sends us away at the end, something she herself immediately recognizes when she initially can't understand her future self's actions as she exists now. As I understand it, this is an outline of how events shaped Venat's motives and decisions leading to where we are in the present:

- Venat exists as she did before our arrival in Elpis, a generally benevolent but oddly distant person who feels deeply but in terms of abstractions, “akin to a force of nature.” She has a vague dissatisfaction with the current world order, to the point that she feels she cannot return to the star as per tradition because she feels her people still need “help.” They are still in need of something from her, are lacking in something she feels she can’t leave alone until it is addressed.

- At some point in the past, she had some kind of personal epiphany that led her to viewing the world in a completely new and unique way, that made her feel intensely in tune with the world itself as a holistic entity and even sense a warm “presence without” associated with it. This was such a powerful experience to her, contrasting with what she implies was a prior viewpoint weighed down with preconceptions and prejudice, that she dedicated her life to a long, long journey.

- We arrive in Elpis. Venat discerns that we must from the future, and hears our story. It confuses her, particularly in relation to her own actions. It seems obvious to her that the natural course of action, given all of the destruction it wrought, would be to prevent the Final Days altogether, but this isn’t what her future self seems to have done. She concludes that therefore there must be something that changed between now and then, some huge reason she doesn’t understand yet for her to have done this 180.

- After Emet-Selch storms off, Venat travels alone with us. Venat bonds with us and comes to really like us a great deal, impressed with our strength and resilience and surpassing her hopes, considering the conditions we emerged from. She later, on the bridge, asks to hear more detailed stories about our life in hopes that it will help her better understand the still apparently incomprehensible actions of her future self. She is enamored with the stories of our world. They are incredible. She wishes she could be there. To hear that in spite of living in such hardship and calamity, mankind as a whole still endures, “gives her heart.”

- Along the way, Venat also notes that Emet-Selch is a good man who will work towards the greater good even if it means cooperating with someone he harshly disagreed with before. She files this information about him away.

- Everything with Hermes happens. Venat notes that while many people could hear Meteion’s report of despair and be more or less okay, Hermes probably wouldn’t, as he was already dissatisfied with his world and society and “seen the cracks in the veneer of perfection.” She says she understands his feelings in this sense, hence her refusal to return out of a sense of opposition to it as well. Again, her people “still need help.” Venat had a sense they were still not okay as she were, so she was not okay leaving them without her guidance.

- Venat hears Meteion’s report. The part about a society eliminating sorrow and suffering, leaving them as empty beings who could no longer appreciate joy and drove themselves to their own end, hits her extremely hard. She connects this with with her own dissatisfaction with Amaurotine society, and it likely clarifies that vague, uneasy feeling she’s been carrying for a long time.

- Meteion gets away, and Emet-Selch and Hythlodaeus save Venat and us. Venat is emotionally and physically exhausted, and takes some time to process, mulling over what to do about everything that’s happened and everything we know now. After some internal back and forth, she comes to the conclusion that, especially if they’re facing down Meteion, the premise of Hermes’s test is valid. That, indeed, mankind must prove its worthiness to exist – and her opinion is that can only be accomplished by seeing how they respond in the face of absolute despair. (After all, a world filled with despair like the WoL’s is still so filled with beauty and has ended up creating a version of mankind full of strength and resilience. WoL has been through so much and shines so brilliantly.)

- In other words, Venat has gained the information she was confused about lacking before about her future self’s mindset. Namely, the picture we paint of the Sundered future, and Meteion's report. She decides to allow the Final Days to happen as a test of the Ancients, in the hopes that they will respond in what she views as the correct way, reflecting her view of using suffering to grow one’s internal strength and the ability to find “everlasting light.”

- The Final Days happen. The Ancients do not react in the way Venat wanted, prioritizing returning to their world of vastly reduced suffering over her ideology of using it to become stronger. She is deeply disappointed and sees this as them choosing a path of weakness. She reasons to herself, though, that her belief in mankind’s “potential” and “ability to find a way forward” means that they will learn to respond in the correct way if she forces them into an environment of suffering that leaves them no “temptation” and no choice. She also makes the decision to pursue the convergence of the WoL’s timeline with her own, chasing her “light of the future,” and therefore leaves the future Ascians out of the Sundering deliberately so they can go through with the Rejoinings WoL foretold. (Note that this is also consistent with the earlier part where Hythlodaeus proposes Hydaelyn guided WoL to Elpis in hopes of changing the future, which Venat shoots down because then the specifics don't make sense logically.)

- The Sundered timeline plays out as we know it does. The Seventh Umbral Calamity happens. As people die and despair over why it is happening, Hydaelyn sings about how this suffering will, in fact, be a very worthwhile and educational experience for them so they will “understand who they are and and what role they will play.”

- The game plays out. Venat invites us to definitely "prove our worth" through "a test of arms." When we defeat her, she is finally satisfied that mankind has achieved the "strength" she has always wished for them to and dies. Again, along the way, Venat also understands she chose to completely screw over Emet-Selch as a pawn in the course of her plans, and after her death leaves a contingency to give him a second chance at life as an apology for everything she’s put him through. He flips her off and moonwalks back into the Aetherial Sea with Hythlodaeus.

And here we are, waiting for the next patch! Laying things out like that, I think it is possible to have a pretty solid understanding of her line of thinking, for better or worse?

[Rulakir]

After some internal back and forth, she comes to the conclusion that, especially if they’re facing down Meteion, the premise of Hermes’s test is valid. That, indeed, mankind must prove its worthiness to exist – and her opinion is that can only be accomplished by seeing how they respond in the face of absolute despair. (After all, a world filled with despair like the WoL’s is still so filled with beauty and has ended up creating a version of mankind full of strength and resilience. WoL has been through so much and shines so brilliantly.)

The problem with this is the Final Days. The sundered world wasn't going to survive them either. They couldn't even handle the 8th Umbral Calamity which, as Veloran put it once, is a complete "bad end" for Venat with mankind again trying to restore the past over moving forward (and at the expense of all lives on the Source & shards since they didn't know the timeline would endure).

Hermes wasn't issuing a test, it was a condemnation. The sundered (nor seemingly any other life in the cosmos) couldn't resist the Song of Oblivion either, it wasn't something anyone was ever going to or arguably even meant to pass. It was specifically a sundering of Azem who had been groomed for the role and given every resource to ensure success against Meteion. Otherwise, everything dies.

[Brinne]

The problem with this is the Final Days. The sundered world wasn't going to survive them either. They couldn't even handle the 8th Umbral Calamity which, as Veloran put it once, is a complete "bad end" for Venat with mankind again trying to restore the past over moving forward (and at the expense of all lives on the Source & shards since they didn't know the timeline would endure).

Hermes wasn't issuing a test, it was a condemnation. The sundered (nor seemingly any other life in the cosmos) couldn't resist the Song of Oblivion either, it wasn't something anyone was ever going to or arguably even meant to pass. It was specifically a sundering of Azem who had been groomed for the role and given every resource to ensure success against Meteion. Otherwise, everything dies.

Oh, I don't disagree at all. If we want to get into my personal opinions, my belief is that Hermes's test was absolutely not valid and the premise of saying that a person or population must "prove their worthiness" to exist is deeply unsettling and wrong from the get-go, let alone the fixation on the framework of "strength and weakness" in the context of coping with suffering and trauma. This was just me trying to lay out my understanding of Venat's way of thinking and the events fueling them.

[Lauront]

The hill that my corpse will fester on is that the ascians were well within their rights to correct what they saw as a huge mistake born of Hydaelyn's fear of Zodiark's power, and to defy fate as has been the way in many FF games. They and Ardbert & co were the 'dark mirrors' and the actual Warriors of Darkness to the WoL/Scions, who were also within their rights to fight back and defy fate.　Not to mention that those calamities could be thought of as 'toughening up' people as She wanted... I think this has been said a trillion times by others though.

This, 1000x times over. At the end of the day, she knew more or less what they'd get up to if not given the full picture, and yes, I certainly agree they were within their rights to try reverse what she did to them.

*snip*

Pretty stellar breakdown, IMO.

I'd also note how her own mere walking past the ancients dying contrasted to G'raha's "not a single one" line (paraphrasing) and in general the Scions' desire to minimise casualties and suffering - not exactly stances which they're re-considering in light of what they learnt. I thought this take on it by Vyrerus was on the mark on how narrowly this "test" was "passed" in truth.

Her faction don't appear to know anything about the truth of the end of days, so it looks a lot like they were tricked into giving there lives s Venat could be become a god and exterminate her own race, she is a complete and utter monster, the story fails to show any reason why Zodiark needed to be stopped. The only reason seems to spite on Venat's part of the ancients not living up to her self imposed standards.

I would agree. The dialogue here does not suggest they understood the implications of what would happen to them. They speak after all about missing her, comparing the situation to that with Elidibus. They also speak of the doom they mean to forestall in vague terms - to me, this sounds like they're discussing the implications of the report about the Plenty. I don't think they fully understood what she was going to do and that their souls would be consumed wholesale in the process. I'd hazard the guess that the action they intended to take was to bind Zodiark to prevent him from enabling the restoration of the star to its prior state (i.e. halt the return of the ancients in Zodiark) - as to sundering the ancients? No clear indication they knew of that, in my view. We simply know that she and her summoners were driven by the belief that their people shouldn't dwell in the past, from the Watcher, when he explains why she lied about the past, but only in the sense that that determined her purpose - not that they knew in detail of what would transpire.





French version for comparison:

[17:06] Amaurotain serein (Serene Amaurotine) : Compagnons, merci de vous être rassemblés à l'Anydre malgré les circonstances.
= “Companions, thank you for assembling at the Anyder despite the circumstances.”

[17:06] Amaurotain serein : L'invocation de Zordiarche a bien eu pour effet d'apaiser le fléau. Et d'aucuns voient le nouvel ordre qu'il a fait naître d'une robustesse sans faille.
= “The summoning of Zodiark had the effect of calming the (calamity). And some see that the new order that it has given birth to flawless robustness.”

[17:06] Amaurotain inquiet (Concerned Amaurotine) : Malheureusement, nous courons plus que jamais à notre perte. Cet artifice n'a fait que retarder l'inéluctable.
= “Unfortunately, we are more than ever at a loss. This artifice has only delayed the inevitable.”

[17:06] Amaurotain inquiet : J'ai bien tenté d'en faire part au Concile des Quatorze, mais mon avis n'a pas été pris en compte.
= “I tried to convey this to the Council of fourteen, but my opinion was not taken into account.”

[17:06] Amaurotain inquiet : Quant au membre qui a laissé son siège vacant, j'ignore si son intention est de rester neutre jusqu'au bout. En tout cas, nos sollicitations sont toujours vaines.
= “As for the member who left his seat vacant, I do not know whether his intention is to remain neutral until the end. In any case, our solicitations are always in vain.”

[17:06] Amaurotain inquiet : Vénérable Venat, pourriez-vous nous faire part de votre opinion à ce sujet ?
= “Venerable Venat, could you share your thoughts on this?”

[17:06] Venat : Il est inutile de faire des reproches aux membres du Concile. Tout comme nous, ils ne désirent rien d'autre qu'un avenir prospère pour notre monde.
= “It is futile to make attempts to approach the members of the Council. Like us, they want nothing but a prosperous future for our world.”

[17:07] Venat : Demandez-vous plutôt si vous êtes prêts à suivre la route que nous avons choisie, quitte à devoir leur faire face, ainsi qu'à nombre de nos compatriotes…
= “Instead, ask yourself whether you are ready to follow the path we have chosen, even if
it means you have to face them, as well as many of our fellow compatriots…”

[17:07] Venat : Si c'est le cas, suivez-moi et créons ensemble un frein à ce futur.
= “If that's the case, then follow me and let's create a brake on this future together.”

[17:07] Venat : Pour opposer la Lumière aux Ténèbres de Zordiarche, nous donnerons naissance à... Hydaelyn.
= “To oppose the Light to the Shadows of Zodiark, we will give birth to… Hydaelyn.”


Part Two:

[17:10] Amaurotain serein : Vénérable Venat... N'y a-t-il vraiment aucun autre moyen d'invoquer Hydaelyn ?
= “Venerable Venat… Is there really no other way to summon Hydaelyn?”

[17:10] Amaurotain serein : Nous avons encore tant besoin de vous, que vous nous montriez la voie…
= “We still really need you, that you show us the way…”

[17:10] Venat : Vous savez bien que notre projet est loin de bénéficier d'autant de sympathisants qu'a pu en compter la création de Zordiarche…
= “You know full well that our project is far from benefiting from as many sympathizers as the creation of Zordiark could count…”

[17:10] Venat : Je suis la seule à pouvoir devenir le noyau d'Hydaelyn, afin de contenir la puissance de l'autre divinité.
= “I am the only one who can become the core of Hydaelyn, in order to contain the power of the other Divinity.”

[17:10] Venat : Ne vous en faites pas, je ne disparaîtrai pas pour autant. Je pourrai toujours décider quelle forme donner à mon existence.
= “Don't worry, it doesn’t necessarily mean I will disappear. I can always decide what shape to give my existence.”

[17:10] Amaurotain serein : De toute évidence, je ne vous ferai pas changer d'avis. Vous nous manquerez terriblement, sachez-le.
= “Obviously, I won't change your mind. We'll miss you terribly, you should know that.”

[17:11] Amaurotain serein : Je me demande si les membres du Concile des Quatorze ont ressenti la même chose, lorsqu'Elidibus a fait don de son être pour créer Zordiarche…
= “I wonder if the members of the Council of Fourteen felt the same when Elidibus gave (an offering of) his being to create Zordiark…”