Sundering stuff established in the Q&A

[Lucida3b]

To me with Emet,i actually liked that he stuck to his ideals. In the end the Sundered were living at the expense of the Ancients lives. The Ancients themselves didn’t have a choice, or outside help like the Sundered did. In the end though it just comes down to genocidaelyn making all the wrong decisions and the ancients sadly had to pay for it. In terms of the sacrifice the Ironworks were fine with sacrificing all the people in their timeline to being the WoL back. The ancients were doing no different.

There is also the argument to be made that once again metieon spoiled the results of the plenty via her dynamis manipulation amplifying any issues to the point they made a primal type being to kill them all.

To touch upon some of what has been said, I feel like part of the issue is that it's easy to sympathize with 'do terrible things for the sake of family/loved ones' that Emet is motivated by, vs the 'do terrible things for the sake of a ideal/fiat' that Venat has if that makes sense. On the whole writing elsewhere, I feel like I could agree with the idea of writer bias for the simple reason of the end of elpis cutscene, that scene makes no sense outside of it being metaphorical but then the question becomes, 'Why was it metaphorical' and the only reason I can think of is either budget or to make Venat look better by underselling the horror of what she was doing.



Anyone got the source of a second expansion being cut after Shadowbringers launched? I would like to see that.

[jameseoakes]

To touch upon some of what has been said, I feel like part of the issue is that it's easy to sympathize with 'do terrible things for the sake of family/loved ones' that Emet is motivated by, vs the 'do terrible things for the sake of a ideal/fiat' that Venat has if that makes sense. On the whole writing elsewhere, I feel like I could agree with the idea of writer bias for the simple reason of the end of elpis cutscene, that scene makes no sense outside of it being metaphorical but then the question becomes, 'Why was it metaphorical' and the only reason I can think of is either budget or to make Venat look better by underselling the horror of what she was doing.

I think you touch on a big part of it, but then it makes it feel very strange that they went for the arc they went for with Venat. It doesn't feel like she was meant to be a malevolent figure but then the sundering seems to have written in such a way there there is no reason for it other that an act of spite by her towards the people of Etheryis as she just condemns to thousands of years of suffering and most likely the fate of the worlds Meition visits where the populations destroyed there own worlds

[Brinne]

I feel like I could agree with the idea of writer bias for the simple reason of the end of elpis cutscene, that scene makes no sense outside of it being metaphorical but then the question becomes, 'Why was it metaphorical' and the only reason I can think of is either budget or to make Venat look better by underselling the horror of what she was doing.

To irresponsibly speculate a bit, the feeling I get is that the main priority with Venat as a character was to impart a specific "vibe," or a feeling, about her, that was centered around inspirational player affirmation. (Venat is inspired by You, after all, and in many ways is doing all of this for You. People have noted it feels like there's sort of a fourth-wall-breaking feel to her questions about our journey.) To that end, yes, the walking montage had to be what it had to be - to prioritize "feeling," and also because I think that feeling of affirmation would be impossible to reconcile with a more literal, in-universe version of events.

People have discussed Venat's opposition in that scene being the "faceless Ancient strawman," and yes, that is an interesting choice - because the premise of the sequence would fall apart if we replace the NPC with any actual named and developed Ancient characters. Emet's argument would be coming from an entirely different place - the need to save their people from being trapped in Zodiark. Themis wanted peace between the factions and for everyone to be happy. Themis in particular, I think, is a problem - I'm not sure how you would depict the actual event of her fighting him without ruining the vibe they were going for, given established events. We know that Themis was so distressed by the internal strife among the Ancients that he emerged from Zodiark, leaving it coreless, to try to broker negotiations and peace, and therefore that Hydaelyn must have secured her victory while Zodiark was more vulnerable due to that.

It's a bit facetious and I'm mostly joking, but I honestly get the mental image of Themis stepping out of his cockpit shouting "Wait, stop! Let's talk things through! We shouldn't be fighting!" and Venat replying "PEACE WAS NEVER AN OPTION" and promptly Hydaelyn kicking him in the face.

It's funny - on a personal level, I feel like I've mostly made my peace with Endwalker. My main reservations had to do with the tone/framing around Venat and her conflict with the Ancients - I think she's an interesting and fun character in her own right, if allowed to just be what she is - and that was mollified a bit by Yoshida's concessions in the Q&A about her, though of course I really, really wish it was reflected in the actual text. The rest of the common complaints about Endwalker I generally am not on board with - I absolutely loved Zenos's role in it, I loved Garlemald, I even really like the bait-and-switch with the early Zodiark fight, and I can easily forgive things like pacing issues or the difficulty of writing the Scions as a group when they're not in the focus.

The one thing I find myself still yelling and waving my arms about, though, is JUSTICE FOR THEMIS. That poor kid. I don't really know what I'll do if we do, indeed, end up just kind of leaving him to his fate at the conclusion of Pandaemonium.

[KizuyaKatogami]

The one thing I find myself still yelling and waving my arms about, though, is JUSTICE FOR THEMIS. That poor kid. I don't really know what I'll do if we do, indeed, end up just kind of leaving him to his fate at the conclusion of Pandaemonium.

I'll never not be baffled at how they handled him. The heart of Zodiark dealt with in 5 mins with no hope of reincarnation. Probably the character with the worst fate in the entire game if you take into account the thousands of years he toiled away. Didnt get any praise or thanks for helping us and didnt even get a spot on the end credits meanwhile for some reason Hermes of all people did.

[Brinne]

I'll never not be baffled at how they handled him. The heart of Zodiark dealt with in 5 mins with no hope of reincarnation. Probably the character with the worst fate in the entire game if you take into account the thousands of years he toiled away. Didnt get any praise or thanks for helping us and didnt even get a spot on the end credits meanwhile for some reason Hermes of all people did.

Between G'raha saying the Crystal Tower was in the process of transferring his aether to the Sea, and Elidibus saying he's expecting to see his loved ones again in death, I'm running with the interpretation that he's not obliterated in the same sense Venat was. Because otherwise it's honestly too terrible for me to deal with and I will become a terrible caricature of myself, throwing comedic, incomprehensible tantrums at every turn while making dying rooster noises.

Themis isn't even my favorite character, really - I don't actually take much umbrage with him not being in the credits, because of him showing up in the stinger, and I actually think Hermes is a great character - but my heart really hurts for him in a unique way. In a sea of flawed people making varying levels of flawed decisions, I think he stands out as the one legitimately "pure-hearted" innocent figure in the whole mess who truly only had the best intentions and really did nothing wrong. The implication that his goodness, trusting nature, and honest desire for a peaceful resolution where everyone could be happy was taken advantage of for Hydaelyn to secure victory against Zodiark certainly makes me feel a kind of way!

[Rulakir]

Themis in particular, I think, is a problem - I'm not sure how you would depict the actual event of her fighting him without ruining the vibe they were going for, given established events.

I've no doubt this was intentional along with not showing an accurate depiction of events and instead getting an abridged version from Venat's biased POV. EW did its best to gaslight the player into loving her, a faithful retelling of what happened would have painted her as an unforgivable monster and doubtful anyone would have pity or fondness for her after that. I also wonder if that's why Elidibus got the shaft because his version of events would have also clashed with their vision for Venat.

I feel like I've mostly made my peace with Endwalker.

I'm not quite there yet. I'm mostly over my initial anger, now it's mourning the story we never got because for some reason the powers that be decided they didn't want to bother with it anymore. I'm not sure a couple of short stories on the Lodestone are going to fix that either. I still feel like we only saw Venat's side. Elidibus was memory impaired in ShB and then conveniently left out in EW except for time travel fuel and the raid storyline that has nothing to do with the Final Days. The Ascians were also lacking crucial information the whole time. There really wasn't a Zodiark in the finale, it was all the Hydaelyn show with a gundam suit battle with Fandaniel at level 83.

I did like Garlemald, but it needed more focus. Much like the Ancients, I feel like they didn't get as much attention as they needed but at least in their case it can be addressed in the future whereas it seems we're just done with the fundamental lore of the world and existence as we know it. :P I actually liked Zenos in EW and I wasn't a fan of his prior to that. The scene where he's telling the WoL he wants all their hatred directed towards him I thought, "Joke's on you, I don't hate you!"

The pacing was terrible though. "We heard you loved the trolley and talos parts in ShB, here's EW's version of them except they don't lead to a climax!" :P I think about the time wasted on those parts as opposed to adding more to Garlemald or Elpis and I'm just annoyed.

It doesn't feel like she was meant to be a malevolent figure but then the sundering seems to have written in such a way there there is no reason for it other that an act of spite by her towards the people of Etheryis as she just condemns to thousands of years of suffering and most likely the fate of the worlds Meition visits where the populations destroyed there own worlds

It's funny how little it takes to turn Venat into a sinister villain. Just adding that she had a deep seated hatred of Azem (or Emet) is enough then change the post-Elpis dialog to, "I'll destroy you, everything you love, and then manipulate your reincarnation into killing your best friend who I purposely left unsundered and made your enemy." :P

[Brinne]

I've no doubt this was intentional along with not showing an accurate depiction of events and instead getting an abridged version from Venat's biased POV. EW did its best to gaslight the player into loving her, a faithful retelling of what happened would have painted her as an unforgivable monster and doubtful anyone would have pity or fondness for her after that. I also wonder if that's why Elidibus got the shaft because his version of events would have also clashed with their vision for Venat.

On the other hand, the imagery of her mercilessly punching Themis in the face while Answers swells in the background!

I'm not quite there yet. I'm mostly over my initial anger, now it's mourning the story we never got because for some reason the powers that be decided they didn't want to bother with it anymore. I'm not sure a couple of short stories on the Lodestone are going to fix that either. I still feel like we only saw Venat's side. Elidibus was memory impaired in ShB and then conveniently left out in EW except for time travel fuel and the raid storyline that has nothing to do with the Final Days. The Ascians were also lacking crucial information the whole time. There really wasn't a Zodiark in the finale, it was all the Hydaelyn show with a gundam suit battle with Fandaniel at level 83.

I genuinely encourage you to take whatever time and space you need to process, and that it's okay if you don't ever really get there. I think Endwalker made some serious missteps I wouldn't blame anyone for finding fundamentally unforgivable. That being said, I don't actually think most of it came from a place of malice - I think they came from a place of generally good intent, just good intentions that were focused so much toward encouraging the player that the integrity of the in-game narrative ended up suffering for it. When you look at things like Footfalls, the promo art of Zodiark and Hydaelyn both protecting the world, the way those elements were talked about, at least to me - it seems clear that what the team was aiming for was an inspiring, encouraging story of everyone, darkness or light-aligned, joining hands and uniting in purpose to save the world, and more importantly, believe in and support you. Everyone's behind you, you can do it! Emet-Selch is cheering you on, Hydaelyn is cheering you on! Don't succumb to despair! There's a self-consciousness threaded throughout the entire story of Endwalker being the Big Grand Emotional Finale, and the team has acknowledged before that most people are in a rough place due to the state of the world right now, that - I think it just culminated in that positive, uplifting tone being their priority.

The trick they tried to pull with Venat to make her lovable, make her support something to be welcomed, and assure you she "wasn't a bad guy" was tying her motives to you - and it's a trick that's been wildly successful with characters before. A lot of the love for the Crystal Exarch was based on the reveal that his biggest motivation was you; a lot of the intrigue for Emet-Selch, for many people, was based in his personal stake regarding you as someone he knew in the past. Haurchefant was the first sort of breakout character in the story, because he stood out as someone who particularly adored and was kind to you. They took those signals and patterns and probably deduced, for better or worse, that people would also love Hydaelyn with a reveal that "she was doing everything for you, actually." The Sundering would become a touching, if tragic, gesture, if it was done For You. And it seemed to have worked for a lot of people, too.

You can sort of see, if you squint, the glimmer of potential of "Venat loves your experiences and journey through the game so much that she makes the decision to affirm it, ensure it happens, and is celebrated" as something well-meaning, intended to be validating. But I think somewhere in attempting to tie all these things together with the existing plot, they (mostly) accidentally did a Social Darwinist Ideologue Mass Murder Apologism that encourages the sort of ugly Othering and thematic throwing under the bus of the Ancients - which all seems to have hit Yoshida a bit belatedly. Whoops.

I actually liked Zenos in EW and I wasn't a fan of his prior to that. The scene where he's telling the WoL he wants all their hatred directed towards him I thought, "Joke's on you, I don't hate you!"

My Actual Hot Take (tm) regarding Endwalker is that Zenos's arc is hands down the best-written, most affecting part of it, the most successful execution of its attempted themes, and anyone who hates him in Endwalker is Wrong. Objectively wrong, I say! I will broker no argument!

The pacing was terrible though. "We heard you loved the trolley and talos parts in ShB, here's EW's version of them except they don't lead to a climax!" :P I think about the time wasted on those parts as opposed to adding more to Garlemald or Elpis and I'm just annoyed.

Confession: I did, in fact, unironically love the trolley and Talos parts in ShB. <_<

That being said, I would trade Labyrinthos in a heartbeat for another zone for either Garlemald or Elpis, absolutely.

[Rulakir]

On the other hand, the imagery of her mercilessly punching Themis in the face while Answers swells in the background!

My hot take: I hate Answers, I have always hated that song. I know I'm in the minority on this one, but ugh. I also hate Flow. Meanwhile, I've had any version of the Garlean theme from the radio to the dungeon stuck in my head on infinite loop.

That being said, I don't actually think most of it came from a place of malice - I think they came from a place of generally good intent, just good intentions that were focused so much toward encouraging the player that the integrity of the in-game narrative ended up suffering for it.

Thematically, I found EW to be full of platitudes and I've lost count how many times I've sighed or rolled my eyes at the dialog. It also came across as preachy. I sincerely hope this is a one and done in terms of having self help messaging throughout an expansion. >_>

They took those signals and patterns and probably deduced, for better or worse, that people would also love Hydaelyn with a reveal that "she was doing everything for you, actually." The Sundering would become a touching, if tragic, gesture, if it was done For You. And it seemed to have worked for a lot of people, too.

I think it worked for the people they were able to convince that the Ancients were doomed no matter what (or who were never attached to the Ancients). Those of us who saw numerous alternate paths that weren't explored are the ones left frustrated. Also, as an unabashed fan of the Ancients, I can say this did not work for me at all. Venat is directly responsible for condemning my favorite characters, in some cases to fates worse than death, and I'm supposed to like or be thankful to her? I'm instantly reminded of any given stalker film where the person commits unspeakable atrocities and then tells the object of their affection, "Can't you see? I did this all for you!" Not to mention that in order to get the WoL you have to slice, dice, and julienne fry Azem, her protegee. It's seriously messed up.

Just to clarify, I get what you're saying and I agree that's probably how they viewed it, I'm just pointing out how it came across to me (and others). Part of the problem is I personally found Emet to be the most sympathetic and arguably tragic (although Elidibus is up there) figure in the story. The post-Elpis cutscene with Venat's pity walk through the ages did nothing for me. She made her bed, she had to die in it. My heart broke for her victims. As such, was there not one person on FFXIV's team that thought presenting her as a "good guy" might have some issues?

[Skyborne]

...

Couldn't have said it better myself. I was kind of hoping for the same sort of tight writing as in ShB, and I got the impression we'd be working together with 'the enemy'... one of my favorite dumb jRPG cliches. Of course, we semi-got that with Zenos right at the end, but still...

EW I got the impression from day 1 was all in on the big, bombastic feels, the 'uplifting'. But emotions are fickle things that can change or fade... and when that troublesome, pesky brain begins to activate and it all falls apart, especially when you quite like some of these characters who got screwed over the hardest. It worked on the majority, though. Personally the whole setting/lore has lost much of its appeal to me -- I felt like a hero for saving a baby from drowning, but that all just went away after Elpis and the realization of it all dawned on me. Someone waiting 12,000 years for me? Would normally be very touching, but not this time... I'd applaud Yoshi for his brilliant deconstruction of the 'powa of friendship!' trope, but he seemed genuinely taken aback at the Q&A by a not-insignificant number people reacting like myself.

EDIT: I didn't much like the G'raha parts of ShB either, with the Adoring Fan levels of hero worship. But perhaps I'm just not the intended audience for this, and don't really want a game to butter me up, prop up my self-esteem, tell me I am a good good girl who is worth it, and so on... I found Ardbert, Emet, and their independent struggles and anguish to be much more interesting.

My hot take: I hate Answers, I have always hated that song. I know I'm in the minority on this one, but ugh. I also hate Flow. Meanwhile, I've had any version of the Garlean theme from the radio to the dungeon stuck in my head on infinite loop.

Agreed... I liked Answers back in ARR, and especially the remix in T12, when it applied to that specific situation. But now that it's associated with.... well, what we got? It's soured and curdled just a little. I prefer Dragonsong... ironically, the lyrics she sings very much apply to herself now. Why turn the past into dust, mom?