Making the case for a new starting point in 7.0

[Alleo]

On one hand I can understand that someone not interested in story who wants to do endgame may be overwhelmed with the amount of story. At the same time this is after all a Final Fantasy game and we know that in the future we will be able to do this mostly solo too. Maybe this MMO is simply not for everyone and IMO it should not change its main core just because some might not want to play it for the story.

I also dont think that a new starting point would be good for anyone in the long term. Yes we start a new arc with 7.0 but it was already hinted at the end that we will see the Scions again. They basically told us that we should call on them if stuff goes crazy. On top of that we have so many connections with other NPCs, its very hard to imagine that suddenly in 7.0 we dont speak to any of those again. I believe that we will meet new people but that certain other NPCs including someone like Cid will always be a constant through out. People that seemingly would have no connections to a fresh person.

And for any interaction to make sense SE would have to write different scenes with it, increasing the amount of work needed which in turn will probably take away from other content beside the story. On top of that how would it make any sense to unlock old content? Many of the dungeons and trials are locked behind the story. The whole first and its content would not be doable since it would have already happened. At least right now we have the time bubble where everything will always happened at a specific time even if you unlock it later. That cant be true for a new character in 7.0 because for them to start there, everything must have already happened.

And with all of that people that enjoy the game for it story will suffer, because time would be split to make it sense for both sides and those that played it for endgame might suffer because ressources are not endless.

In the end a solution already exists. You can already buy skip potions. Just see it as an investment on not having to pay x amount of sub months. And you give SE more money too. I guess I would also be fine with one free skip for ARR-Stormblood so that you would start with Shadowbringers but other than that, I see no reason to change the system right now.

[Shougun]

On one hand I can understand that someone not interested in story who wants to do endgame may be overwhelmed with the amount of story. At the same time this is after all a Final Fantasy game and we know that in the future we will be able to do this mostly solo too. Maybe this MMO is simply not for everyone and IMO it should not change its main core just because some might not want to play it for the story.

I also dont think that a new starting point would be good for anyone in the long term. Yes we start a new arc with 7.0 but it was already hinted at the end that we will see the Scions again. They basically told us that we should call on them if stuff goes crazy. On top of that we have so many connections with other NPCs, its very hard to imagine that suddenly in 7.0 we dont speak to any of those again. I believe that we will meet new people but that certain other NPCs including someone like Cid will always be a constant through out. People that seemingly would have no connections to a fresh person.

And for any interaction to make sense SE would have to write different scenes with it, increasing the amount of work needed which in turn will probably take away from other content beside the story. On top of that how would it make any sense to unlock old content? Many of the dungeons and trials are locked behind the story. The whole first and its content would not be doable since it would have already happened. At least right now we have the time bubble where everything will always happened at a specific time even if you unlock it later. That cant be true for a new character in 7.0 because for them to start there, everything must have already happened.

And with all of that people that enjoy the game for it story will suffer, because time would be split to make it sense for both sides and those that played it for endgame might suffer because ressources are not endless.

In the end a solution already exists. You can already buy skip potions. Just see it as an investment on not having to pay x amount of sub months. And you give SE more money too. I guess I would also be fine with one free skip for ARR-Stormblood so that you would start with Shadowbringers but other than that, I see no reason to change the system right now.

Most of the story-specific issues people list I feel are non-issue...

Why would you- even if you wanted to make an alternate entry point, make it so you have to double or triple up the story? Like.. y tho? lol. If I was making it, I would go out of my way to avoid such a horrible situation XD.

WoL gets dunked into the aetherial sea, gets plucked out after a dream sequence of lore and combat events- gets a vague idea of who they were, but also has a sort of "bethesda" start of what you can now be. Everything that has happened for other WoLs has happened for you. There is no... extra thing to write except if the writers feel it's fun to (like for Legacy players). A quick example that I just happen to like since it references Cloud in FF7 and that could excite fans of the sRPG series.

Legacy players have a few minor adjustments because they (SE) can, it doesn't rewrite the entire story however. Legacy could have no extra special acknowledgments and the game would still move forward fine (if not for a few minor funny moments on some comments . . :3).

There are certainly other impacts that can be felt if you did such a thing (maybe more players who don't like story are joining in since the game is now more accessible, maybe that does happen), but I really feel the whole story argument against the idea is only a concern if you, imo, did it wrong. So.. don't do it wrong.. lol. The game often assumes you need a refresher anyways, how they treat new expansions is with cute little re-quips that gently remind you of events, a player who is new can use that 'reminder' as actually a hint of what their character has been through. Given an expansion is prepared for such a concept it would be done even better with reminders, I highly doubt anyone would be lost then and there is no new story that needs to constantly be maintained - at the point of an expansion it's not really extra work either. "right so we're going to use white auracite, do our players even reminder what it does? ...just in case lets remind them" (literally what happens in ShB, a new player wouldn't be lost due to this situation therefore).

As for the potential twists in player base desires.. I'm not sure, and you could always start it at an expansion previous. So rather than 8.0 requiring 400+ hours of story it's like 50. You listed a few issues and I'm not rebutting them all, but for the lore implications and challenges in writing the story-- it really seems minor to no issue to me, given that you at least don't do something silly like make it like "choose the WoL start" or "merchant caravan dovakin start". No absolutely don't do that and of course that would be a bad idea, the WoL has to be the WoL.... but you can have them still accelerate while still being them in the story implication. There are trilogy games that do this all the time, where you have the same cast and don't rewrite the story, yet you 'start' in an alternate spot if you're new to the series (like if you started mass effect out of sequence, there are minor differences if you "played through all of the story" but you're not lost, I think a lot of the issues brought up of extra story are just not that serious as long as the alternate start isn't introducing something silly).

[Mapleine]

They can revamp ARR until it's blinding in its mediocrity but I will not be able to get any new players interested with a mandatory five JRPGs worth of story before multiplayer kicks in. It's too much.

If people solely want a single player game, they aren't going to settle for a mangled MMO version of one that has such outrageous demands. They will go play a single player game with better graphics, polish and more accessible gameplay.

[kaynide]

They can revamp ARR until it's blinding in its mediocrity but I will not be able to get any new players interested with a mandatory five JRPGs worth of story before multiplayer kicks in. It's too much.

If people solely want a single player game, they aren't going to settle for a mangled MMO version of one that has such outrageous demands. They will go play a single player game with better graphics, polish and more accessible gameplay.

The people who are only interested in the extreme niche of "newest endgame" are few, and honestly not worth developing around as they will just get bored of the game as soon as the next thing comes along.

Most people who do endgame are long-term players who are indeed interested in other content as well. Moreover, new players seeing "5 JRPGs worth of content" don't necessarily see that as a bad thing- indeed it's a bargain of content for the price of entry.

I would say the vast majority of players realize there's a huge amount of content unlocked at 50, and then every 10 levels..not to mention the huge side content that can be done mostly level-independent once unlocked. Again, I think the only people thinking "omg I have to burn through 5 games just to do this raid" are not the type to retain subscription and therefore not worth SE's time to cater for aside from offering the story skip.

[aveyond-dreams]

They can revamp ARR until it's blinding in its mediocrity but I will not be able to get any new players interested with a mandatory five JRPGs worth of story before multiplayer kicks in. It's too much.

If people solely want a single player game, they aren't going to settle for a mangled MMO version of one that has such outrageous demands. They will go play a single player game with better graphics, polish and more accessible gameplay.

Even single player gamers can't get into ARR in its current (pre-addition of Trusts) stage. There's no fun in the combat and the story takes too long to pick up. People just don't care about what's happening in totally-not-generic-starter-village-Gridania or pirate land. They want to fight the empire, and they want to go fight dragons in Ishgard. Also, they want to actually be able to fight and use their abilities, which isn't possible in current ARR instances. This is my opinion as someone who for the most part avoids multiplayer games except this one and FFXI. If the story is floundering and every fight is over in less than a minute, why should I buy your game in order to pay for a skip to when everything actually starts getting good? It's bad business.

An optional skip or Season 2 character creation for 7.0 solves the main barriers to entry: Want a good story? Start at the point where the writers finally figured out what they were doing and abandoned most filler quests/classic mmorpg garbage. Want to play with friends in the more recent (and objectively more engaging) fights? Start at 7.0. A single opportunity to start in Season 2 or to make a character for one would go a long way towards helping the current state of affairs. At any time they can go back and unlock the content they missed out on, maybe even add an in-game guide of questlines/raids not completed yet outside of the new game plus menu that is more obvious and handy.

[Anvaire]

Even single player gamers can't get into ARR in its current (pre-addition of Trusts) stage. There's no fun in the combat and the story takes too long to pick up. People just don't care about what's happening in totally-not-generic-starter-village-Gridania or pirate land. They want to fight the empire, and they want to go fight dragons in Ishgard. Also, they want to actually be able to fight and use their abilities, which isn't possible in current ARR instances. This is my opinion as someone who for the most part avoids multiplayer games except this one and FFXI. If the story is floundering and every fight is over in less than a minute, why should I buy your game in order to pay for a skip to when everything actually starts getting good? It's bad business.

An optional skip or Season 2 character creation for 7.0 solves the main barriers to entry: Want a good story? Start at the point where the writers finally figured out what they were doing and abandoned most filler quests/classic mmorpg garbage. Want to play with friends in the more recent (and objectively more engaging) fights? Start at 7.0. A single opportunity to start in Season 2 or to make a character for one would go a long way towards helping the current state of affairs. At any time they can go back and unlock the content they missed out on, maybe even add an in-game guide of questlines/raids not completed yet outside of the new game plus menu that is more obvious and handy.

I dont agree. There have been a raft of new players who enjoy the story of ARR but criticize certain points. It is by no means the best story, but it is decent and holds its own. The later chapters of Heavensward, Stormblood, Shadowbringers and Endwalker while they can and do hold on their own, do have a greater impact on those that played the whole narative and those that played only part. The bottom line is that FFXIV is a game built around narritive, sure if you arent interested you can just skip and play the content, but the cost is some of the resonance and hype those fights have because of where they were. Would EW trial 2 be such a powerful moment if it was divorced from the narative? Id say no.

That said, I do think there is a point where the subsequent levels of story make starting out a daunting task. But to look at it another way, it would be akin to skipping The fellowship of the Ring and then not knowing who anyone was and what was going on in the two Towers. Or perhaps skipping until the northern crator scene in FF7? Essentially the story is impactful and has weight by virtue of the path taken to walk there. I dont think skipping is something that should be granted for free. If a person takes the decision to story skip, then that is what the purchasable item is for. It is expensive currently because it essentially offers a poorer experience.

At the end of the day, this is an RPG with MMO aspects, if one doesnt like RPGs and Stories then perhaps, the game will not offer the best experience for them. Looking at ex wow player feedback, it certainly seems the story comes as a plesant surprise. For us veteran players looking back on ARR, of course its going to be a worse experence than current. Its the same as comparing Tales of Arise to Breath of Fire 1 - Breath of Fire 1 will always be a worst experience because its a product of its time. But that is differnet from being an enjoyable or valuable experience.

[Alleo]

Most of the story-specific issues people list I feel are non-issue...

Why would you- even if you wanted to make an alternate entry point, make it so you have to double or triple up the story? Like.. y tho? lol. If I was making it, I would go out of my way to avoid such a horrible situation XD.

So bascially somehow the character still has done everything up to that point? Then the buyable story skips are still imo the easiest solutions. After all people that jump to the end do skip months of subscriptions, so for me its only fair that bascially the price for that is the money for the skip potion. There they can still go through the story again if they suddenly see that maybe there isnt that much at endgame and SE does not need to change anything at all (and gets more money out of it too).

If people solely want a single player game, they aren't going to settle for a mangled MMO version of one that has such outrageous demands. They will go play a single player game with better graphics, polish and more accessible gameplay.

Well one can also say: If someone does not want to play a story heavy MMO then simply play any of the other MMOs. Honestly the new starting point would only make much sense (IMO) if we had a huge amount of battle endgame content on top of that. I can already see people that use the new starting point, get throught the new expansion (with not a single clue on how to do anything) only to find out that endgame is not that great if you only want to do battle content and then unsub.

[Shougun]

So bascially somehow the character still has done everything up to that point? Then the buyable story skips are still imo the easiest solutions. After all people that jump to the end do skip months of subscriptions, so for me its only fair that basically the price for that is the money for the skip potion. There they can still go through the story again if they suddenly see that maybe there isnt that much at endgame and SE does not need to change anything at all (and gets more money out of it too).

Not somehow, you've probably started quite a few games where your character did something you didn't know about until later. Of course someone might say "but /I/ didn't do it, making it feel less like the character is an extension of me" but in terms of lore it seems like a non-issue for story telling capabilities as there are many live examples of it, and a vaguely similar in FFXIV example of it given we've legacy start vs non-legacy start. Can see 2.0 start as the accelerated start and legacy players as the OG start- of course I say vaguely because technically there was some retcon and such too... lol.

For the devs of course the story skip is the easiest option, but I also feel like it's an awful option even if free. It just throws you at the wall at 900 miles an hour. Big frowny face from me on that being a good solution. Having the game give an accelerated lesson of gameplay, general immediate need to know lore, and also direction out of the gate I think is far superior to "WAM WELCOME TO THE GAME BOIISSS". Which is what the potion basically does. Introductions can and should help hook you (I mean literally some people refer to events like this as "the hook"), the skip potions have a god awful hook. But "400+ hour hook" isn't a hook.. that's the marathon lol.

A marathon I will note some people are going to see as the whole point of the game, while others will be on a range of "I want to play with my friends with current content they're doing, I joined because I want to do what they're doing" to "I saw the new expansion and it looks amazing, I didn't join at the other expansions because I wasn't interested- I'm still not interested". The latter who doesn't really appreciate the lore or theme of a specific expansion have the opportunity to being hooked into the game at something they did like and potentially going back (via MSQ+) and then actually liking it. Your only option currently is to invest in a massive commitment (if you were specifically only interested in later stuff) or pay to be thrown at the wall in a way I would describe as an awful hook.

[Alleo]

Not somehow, you've probably started quite a few games where your character did something you didn't know about until later. Of course someone might say "but /I/ didn't do it, making it feel less like the character is an extension of me" but in terms of lore it seems like a non-issue for story telling capabilities as there are many live examples of it, and a vaguely similar in FFXIV example of it given we've legacy start vs non-legacy start. Can see 2.0 start as the accelerated start and legacy players as the OG start- of course I say vaguely because technically there was some retcon and such too... lol.

For the devs of course the story skip is the easiest option, but I also feel like it's an awful option even if free. It just throws you at the wall at 900 miles an hour. Big frowny face from me on that being a good solution. Having the game give an accelerated lesson of gameplay, general immediate need to know lore, and also direction out of the gate I think is far superior to "WAM WELCOME TO THE GAME BOIISSS". Which is what the potion basically does.

How would a new starting point make that easier? They would either need to use hours of mindless grinding if they start a job at level 1 and if they start at a higher level to begin the new expansion they will be overwhelmed with everything too, after all those are probably new players that have to learn the whole game.

So what will that do to the dungeon quality for the new dungeons? How many more players will not know what a stack marker is? At least if they skipped with a jump potion they had to buy it first which can already stop some from doing that.

Also about your character: There is a difference between a character having some kind of life before we take over them (which can still largely be made up by ourself since there is nothing known ingame) and a character that has bascially 90 levels and several expansions of stories behind them which includes saving the whole universe.

[Shougun]

How would a new starting point make that easier? They would either need to use hours of mindless grinding if they start a job at level 1 and if they start at a higher level to begin the new expansion they will be overwhelmed with everything too, after all those are probably new players that have to learn the whole game.

So what will that do with the dungeon quality for the new dungeons? How many more players will not know what a stack marker is? At least if they skipped with a jump potion they had to buy it first which can already stop some from doing that.

Also about your character: There is a difference between a character having some kind of life before we take over them (which can still largely be made up by ourself since there is nothing known ingame) and a character that has bascially 90 levels and several expansions of stories which includes saving the whole universe.

You're describing what the intro would do... Or at least need to do, it's not like I'm suggesting a new bog standard low quality intro (like a lot of mmos have, to be honest), it would need to be carefully constructed (to the point you might consider it one of the better 'quests' of the game, but that's where MSQ+ would allow players who already started the game to also get to enjoy it too and put a reward behind it so the effort isn't wasted on a whole section of the audience).

Can you not mentally create a multi-hour introduction (2hr?), in your mind that would teach people stack? If you started someone at like level 30, and then boosted them to 40, 50, etc. They would, except maybe specific weird jobs like Black Mage which might evolve weirdly, be able to pick it up at least to the current quality we already have in DF- I strongly believe.

For the last point, not really- imo. Again many games have done just that, it's proven to be fine... I've played many games that had series components where you did something epic but then the next game would be okay to start at if you didn't play the previous ones.