"You pull, you tank" is a bad mentality

[Absimiliard]

Y'know the beauty of this mentality? Tanks are not necessary to complete dungeons. A group can just as easily kick the baby-raging tank and have one of the DPS take over while they wait for the spot to be filled again. Even tankbusters won't do enough damage to one-shot most DPS. It's mostly just a question of whether or not the healer wants to deal with keeping a DPS alive while they get stomped into the ground.

[Jijifli]

Y'know the beauty of this mentality? Tanks are not necessary to complete dungeons. A group can just as easily kick the baby-raging tank and have one of the DPS take over while they wait for the spot to be filled again. Even tankbusters won't do enough damage to one-shot most DPS. It's mostly just a question of whether or not the healer wants to deal with keeping a DPS alive while they get stomped into the ground.

in the 85 dungeon, we had a tank that ended up dying to the second boss while I was leveling SAM. Because he died, I ended up with the boss, and they were not provoking back so I ended up keeping enmity. painful, but my heart sunk seeing the tank buster icon circle me. I popped third eye, and hoped for the best, but expected my death for the tanks refusal to provoke, for whatever reason, to come for me.

To my own surprise, the tankbuster, from a boss, a boss that KILLED MY TANK did not kill me. However, sadly, the following auto still did as the healer was confident I'd die to it too and didn't have a heal ready for me.

But, I think it says a lot. Back in SB the 65 dungeon 100% would kill a non-tank (And I know, as I did a no tank run of that synced in SB for RP reasons), and here we are now where they just can't. If it's, at least in theory because I could have been healed to survive the following hit, possible for a dps to eat a tank buster and survive, and it's very much possible for dps to handle a single group so long as the healer pays attention a little bit, then unless the tank goes ham, they are quite literally just a weaker dps in the party. At that point, why would you not just bring a third dps?

[Cheremia]

in the 85 dungeon, we had a tank that ended up dying to the second boss while I was leveling SAM. Because he died, I ended up with the boss, and they were not provoking back so I ended up keeping enmity. painful, but my heart sunk seeing the tank buster icon circle me. I popped third eye, and hoped for the best, but expected my death for the tanks refusal to provoke, for whatever reason, to come for me.

To my own surprise, the tankbuster, from a boss, a boss that KILLED MY TANK did not kill me. However, sadly, the following auto still did as the healer was confident I'd die to it too and didn't have a heal ready for me.

But, I think it says a lot. Back in SB the 65 dungeon 100% would kill a non-tank (And I know, as I did a no tank run of that synced in SB for RP reasons), and here we are now where they just can't. If it's, at least in theory because I could have been healed to survive the following hit, possible for a dps to eat a tank buster and survive, and it's very much possible for dps to handle a single group so long as the healer pays attention a little bit, then unless the tank goes ham, they are quite literally just a weaker dps in the party. At that point, why would you not just bring a third dps?

That's not necessarily true tho.
I had multiple dps survive multiple tankbusters in all content (with leveling gear and such, too). Unmitigated TBS on TANKS usually do less than half hp of them, that means dps can also survive it. Sometimes i do wonder how some tanks get so much more damage than others (unmitigated) but otherwise it doesnt kill them outright.

Heck, even I as healer survived some tankbusters i definitely should have died to.

Samurais, Nins and Reaper can survive a lot if they actually would use their mitigation tools, had multiple sams/nins easily survive tbs in Paradigms ONLY because they used their mitigations.

I throw shields on dps on instinct by now because i have seen them survive this often.

It happens a lot that if one tank dies that the other never picks them up in trials and then both are up and nobody takes the boss back for a while, god....
Dunno why hitting provoke is so hard, but it is

Even weirder is that the tank does pull all trash and then doesnt aoe them so you, the healer, have yellow aggro on everything....
Just... Aoe... if the dps run away from you with an add, i can understand that you dont wanna run after them if one provoke isnt enoigh and or out of range.

But if the people run to you to tackle you... just... aoe. You're supposed to Aoe anyways...

[Jijifli]

But if the people run to you to tackle you... just... aoe. You're supposed to Aoe anyways...

This this this this this.

[Pells]

You bring them to me, I'll take them. You don't bring them to me I'll just watch munching on my snack of choice at the time watching your HP drop to 0 because you couldn't wait a few bloody seconds.

Positioning is a tank's job. If you're expecting them to bring their adds to the aoe party, then you're expecting them to follow 'you pull you tank'.


This whole equating it to 'I'll stop tanking now' is some weird strawman that I only hear when people make arguments against the 'you pull you tank' sentiment.

Y'know the beauty of this mentality? Tanks are not necessary to complete dungeons. A group can just as easily kick the baby-raging tank and have one of the DPS take over while they wait for the spot to be filled again. Even tankbusters won't do enough damage to one-shot most DPS. It's mostly just a question of whether or not the healer wants to deal with keeping a DPS alive while they get stomped into the ground.

The tank class isn't needed in these runs, but someone still has to tank. Or do you have everybody running around like headless chickens trying to kite their individual mobs?


Who's pulling in these tankless runs anyway? Do they end up tanking? Positioning is part of tanking: Do they gather the mobs in a ball so you can absolutely demolish them? That is, are they following 'you pull you tank' after all?

[24spencer]

I mean by definition yes in a run with no tank you have to have someone aggro the mobs at some point, I'm not really sure what point you're trying to make though

moot point because even at 3 targets you should be aoeing and there's no real reason for dps to be running around so they can just stand vaguely near each other and press aoe buttons lol, the mobs will group themselves up quite naturally then regardless who has aggro

there is no real argument for "not wall 2 wall" unless you're in, like, stone vigil with 3 sprouts, or aurum vale where half the mobs are optional. If you're trying to force people into singlepull runs of Expert roulette that approaches borderline trolling from the level of laziness. Wall 2 Walling with current healer/tank kits boils down to pressing your aoe damage and cycling like 3 cooldowns. The requirement from a gameplay standpoint is that you know where the buff bar is on your HUD so you can press a new cooldown when the last one runs out.

[Jijifli]

Positioning is a tank's job. If you're expecting them to bring their adds to the aoe party, then you're expecting them to follow 'you pull you tank'.

The problem is if they're running around with 3-4+ mobs willy nilly, it's incredibly slow at best, or impossible at worst, to get them back. Enemy hitbox while in motion is really weird. It's much easier, for both, to just bring it over to the tank if they get it. Heck in the case of like half the joblist, they'd be doing it anyways if they wanted to aoe themself.