Yoshi-P: "If you want more engaging content, go play Ultimate"

[Deceptus]

The Dev team is simply out of touch with how healers work, this is not a war against healer fun or doing that "for the casuals" anymore this is straight up "we do not know what to do" like when they designed the dumbing down of healers in Shb which no one asked for, how they removed ED from Sch in 5.0 breaking the kit even tought we told them and had to be added back in 5.05, how they nerfed energy drain later on so "Sch uses aetherflow heals more" completely missing the point cause Sch didnt use more aetherflow heals with that, how YoshiP said back in SB that they nerfed Sch cause they made their cohealer heal more when the logs showed that Sch was the highest hps healer or stuff like how this expansion broke Whm mp economy with an unasked thin air change and missery did not acount for the increased damage of glare 3 or how holy 3 did not get the reduction cast every single healer damage spell got

Re: Holy 3 (And Gravity 2 as well)

You want a prime example of why certain healers think that the Developers really have no idea on what to do with healers?

The fact they created flashy new animations for Holy 3 and Gravity 2 and put a whoppint 10 POTENCY increase on them.

Here's your brand new ability that is barely better than your old one!

[RobynDaBank]

Re: Holy 3 (And Gravity 2 as well)

You want a prime example of why certain healers think that the Developers really have no idea on what to do with healers?

The fact they created flashy new animations for Holy 3 and Gravity 2 and put a whoppint 10 POTENCY increase on them.

Here's your brand new ability that is barely better than your old one!

To be fair... not to justify the silly "increase", but Holy 3 looks just a little less blinding than Holy so I'm glad they found an excuse to change it (although it's quite late into the leveling so IDK).

[Ixon]

Re: Holy 3 (And Gravity 2 as well)

You want a prime example of why certain healers think that the Developers really have no idea on what to do with healers?

The fact they created flashy new animations for Holy 3 and Gravity 2 and put a whoppint 10 POTENCY increase on them.

Here's your brand new ability that is barely better than your old one!

That's just a power creep issue. They couldn't make Holy 3 and Gravity 2 twice the potency of their counterpart because it's not like healers have a dps kit to shave numbers off to justify the increase. For the other jobs that was the case, it was even a meme on jobs like SAM or DRG because they made certain abilities comically low potency for what they were to make room for the new skills. They can't just add and add and add because that's what lead to the stat squish we got this expansion.

[SeverianLyonesse]

Which I completely understand. I think they did fairly well with SGE in that regard. The balance is different but for the most part the roles are still fairly the same. The only thing that has changed is the power creep. Each expansion everyone wants each job to feel better and more powerful, and after a couple expansions the power creep has made semi-bloated kits that have healers suffering the most. They could nerf tank sustain and add an extra dps button to each healer, but I feel they would still be as bored in the Normal and Savage content unless the content itself was also looked at. You would also make players that can barely do the bare minimum worse, increasing the gap between skill floor and ceiling, making each solo queued instance into randoms statistically a worse experience. Things could be improved for sure, I'm not saying to NOT change them. I hate being bored in content almost as much as I hate repeated wipes and slow runs because of the people who can barely handle their kits as they are now. Somewhere there is a happy middle ground.

I don't think this is a fair argument, though.

Quite frequently when I'm running dungeons the tank is undergeared and/or not popping cooldowns. They see their DPS brrr buttons and focus mostly on that. By that logic, tanks should be given only one DPS button so they can focus on enmity and mitigation.

Not to mention, there are *already* plenty of healers who DPS greed and don't do their job. I don't think adding a 1-2 combo, a debuff ability, or a proc would impact things much.

That's just a power creep issue. They couldn't make Holy 3 and Gravity 2 twice the potency of their counterpart because it's not like healers have a dps kit to shave numbers off to justify the increase. For the other jobs that was the case, it was even a meme on jobs like SAM or DRG because they made certain abilities comically low potency for what they were to make room for the new skills. They can't just add and add and add because that's what lead to the stat squish we got this expansion.

Power creep or not, it feels bad.

[Ixon]

I don't think this is a fair argument, though.

Quite frequently when I'm running dungeons the tank is undergeared and/or not popping cooldowns. They see their DPS brrr buttons and focus mostly on that. By that logic, tanks should be given only one DPS button so they can focus on enmity and mitigation.

Not to mention, there are *already* plenty of healers who DPS greed and don't do their job. I don't think adding a 1-2 combo, a debuff ability, or a proc would impact things much.



Power creep or not, it feels bad.

There is no "Focus on Emnity" anymore, there hasn't really been since SB. Again, could healers have slightly more engaging DPS? Probably. Just have to keep in mind for the sake of balance and button bloat things would have to either get combined or removed, so SE would have to figure that out. The power creep can feel bad, but there isn't a lot of choice. I'd actually be curious if anybody figured out another way other than having in two expansions bosses having Lost Ark levels of HP(it's like Quintillions or something ridiculously high) and players doing a million damage. When you are making a job, or designing job changes for a new expansion, you want them to generally make the player FEEL stronger. Usually jobs get a shiny new DPS button, tanks get more defensive stuff, healers get more healing stuff. This has unfortunately caused tanks to feel overpowered in their sustain, and healers to feel they have bloated kits. And when it comes to DPS, they have to scrape off the damage from other abilities to fit in the new one to again, not have millions of damage going out by a single player. Plus, they can't NOT add anything to a new job, because those jobs will feel left out. So the task at hand is to add new things to each job, to make them feel like an improvement(you can argue on which job hit or missed that mark), while not bloating the kits, or bloating the values. Whether it was intentional or not, the healing and tanking does feel overtuned for what we have been given, that I can agree on. We will have to see if the changes in 6.1 and next raid tier reflect that.

[SeverianLyonesse]

There is no "Focus on Emnity" anymore, there hasn't really been since SB. Again, could healers have slightly more engaging DPS? Probably. Just have to keep in mind for the sake of balance and button bloat things would have to either get combined or removed, so SE would have to figure that out. The power creep can feel bad, but there isn't a lot of choice. I'd actually be curious if anybody figured out another way other than having in two expansions bosses having Lost Ark levels of HP(it's like Quintillions or something ridiculously high) and players doing a million damage. When you are making a job, or designing job changes for a new expansion, you want them to generally make the player FEEL stronger. Usually jobs get a shiny new DPS button, tanks get more defensive stuff, healers get more healing stuff. This has unfortunately caused tanks to feel overpowered in their sustain, and healers to feel they have bloated kits. And when it comes to DPS, they have to scrape off the damage from other abilities to fit in the new one to again, not have millions of damage going out by a single player. Plus, they can't NOT add anything to a new job, because those jobs will feel left out. So the task at hand is to add new things to each job, to make them feel like an improvement(you can argue on which job hit or missed that mark), while not bloating the kits, or bloating the values. Whether it was intentional or not, the healing and tanking does feel overtuned for what we have been given, that I can agree on. We will have to see if the changes in 6.1 and next raid tier reflect that.

I don't disagree with you in most respects and I appreciate your thoughtful inputs on the matter.

I will disagree sliiiightly on "focus on enmity", in that while the tanks *should* have a harder time maintaining enmity, plenty of tanks still screw it up.

I will also observe that I think the job kits are approaching a "final" state. The casters especially feel pretty complete, minus one or two final upgrades/ finales. IMO, the direction they *should* take job design is to add another ten levels to round things out. And from then on, instead of leveling and adding new abilities, just have a few quests every expansion that *only* upgrade abilities. Unless we somehow switch to a longer rotation/burst cycle on every encounter (which is possible), I just agree that tacking on more abilities just isn't a good direction to be taking job design anymore.

[Teno]

Re: Holy 3 (And Gravity 2 as well)

You want a prime example of why certain healers think that the Developers really have no idea on what to do with healers?

The fact they created flashy new animations for Holy 3 and Gravity 2 and put a whoppint 10 POTENCY increase on them.

Here's your brand new ability that is barely better than your old one!

While it certainly looks silly, I believe the new animations are honestly unrelated to healers specifically. It's quite the same for many jobs, simply with better potency adjustments. At the very least I see that as simply a refresher on animations you have seen for 2 years already.

[Rika007]

While it certainly looks silly, I believe the new animations are honestly unrelated to healers specifically. It's quite the same for many jobs, simply with better potency adjustments. At the very least I see that as simply a refresher on animations you have seen for 2 years already.

Except other jobs get other toys besides flashier animations that are actually useable and impactful in content outside of the absolute cutting edge.

[Ixon]

Except other jobs get other toys besides flashier animations that are actually useable and impactful in content outside of the absolute cutting edge.

Idk about that. Macrocosmos is insane, Expedient was a meme till people actually used it, Lilybell needs a slight rework, but can still be fairly strong in content. Completely understandable that adding a 2 or 3 to an ability hardly feels like an upgrade, but if you don't upgrade abilities people will complain that nothing changed. Sure you could have added some flavor text to AoE's like Holy III akin to "After 5 Holy III's your next Holy is free" or something like that just so it feels more different. Though, it's always been the history of the game to flat upgrade most core abilities, however there is always room to improve.

"other jobs get other toys besides flashier animations that are actually useable and impactful in content outside of the absolute cutting edge" - MCH, SAM(Shoha II lul), BLM, DRG, and NIN(kinda) pretty much only got flashy animations. Yes they got a different button, but most don't do much outside of just damage in a different form. Personally, I don't know why healers don't all get an AoE dot like Aero 3 or how SCH had Bane. That would at least be something. At least SGE has Toxicon and Pneuma, so if they can do a similar item with the other three, I think it would be in a better spot.

[Allegor]

Personally, I don't know why healers don't all get an AoE dot like Aero 3 or how SCH had Bane. That would at least be something. At least SGE has Toxicon and Pneuma, so if they can do a similar item with the other three, I think it would be in a better spot.

Because apparently managing 2 dots was either too difficult or made healers deal too much damage, and they couldn't have that. So Aero III, Bane, etc etc had to say sayonara.

I keep saying, it feels the only reason we even still have Glare/Broil/Malefic is because healers have to somehow be able to do solo duties and job quests, which, ironically, have you dealing as much, if not more damage than healing....yes, even in quests designed specifically for a healer we spend most of the time casting 11111111, that's how absurd healer design is (the only quests I recall that was healing/Esuna intensive was a couple of the SCH ones, and thats only because whatshisface didn't count as a party member, so Eos and most ogcds would completely ignore him, and even that sounds more like an oversight than intentional to me)