The Reasoning behind The Sundering? (*6.0 Endwalker Spoilers*)

[Absimiliard]

There were questions put out in the Q+A asking that we be able to go back and forcibly change the events of the story by time travel, or demanding to change around the writing team. There were also some fairly nasty things said in Twitch chat by the usual genocide consent posters. The people making this game are human beings, and they're going to have an emotional response to the vitriol, even if they have to be professional about it. What warmed my heart was the sight of hundreds of people spontaneously cooperating to spam the toxic individuals off the screen. I'm not surprised that they aren't overly keen to write further stories about the Ancients. I wouldn't be.

I think that it's reasonable to express your opinion and leave it at that. But there's a boundary that needs to be set, and unfortunately that needs to happen from a forum moderation standpoint.

I would note that more than a few members of the Venat Fedora-wearers Association have been going around making some nasty posts of their own. Again, if you're going to throw blame around, do so without being disingenuous. You continually attempt to imply this to be a problem that isn't multifaceted, but it very much is. A cursory glance through any of the topics that have been hijacked by either the aforementioned Venat Fedora-wearers Association or the Zodiark Neckbard Brigade will make this abundantly clear.

[Theodric]

To be honest, I don't go to official forums because I want to discuss stuff with other fans - obviously that does happen, but I'm not under any illusions about it being a productive thing to do. Busy online boards are actively hostile environments in regards to disagreeing in a healthy way; text doesn't carry tone and intent easily, and when there are so many people talking over each other, it becomes impossible to clarify oneself or establish a rapport.

I only come to an official forum when I feel strongly enough about something that I want those feelings to be carried to the creators (since there's no feedback email address, lol) in the hope that they'll respond in some way going forward. Creative people are generally most influenced by, rather than the simple majority, the people who are most passionate and willing to talk about their work, so long as that talking is in broadly good faith. I've loved large amounts of FFXIV's story, and that's what makes me want to clarify my feelings and the breadth of my discomfort with parts of EW in the hopes that maybe they'll get it where I'm coming from and change course a tiny bit.

Yoshi-P has spoken about how the writing team reads even the English feedback here in the past and that said feedback does influence their choices, so in book, it's good for these threads to stay active and create a better shot at them actually seeing it. Though honestly, people with an opposing opinions are basically bystanders in this context; I wish there was a way I could express my opinion in a manner the writers might see without the pretext of a debate, though I do respect most people with contrary opinions as individuals. As least as much as you can respect a faceless person who you only know through their perspective on RPG plot points.

I can't speak for everyone, though.

I take the same approach. I come here to weigh in the story as it advances, share my theories and provide feedback. The development team can do whatever they like with that - but I like putting forward information about what I enjoy and what I'd like to see more of.

The endless arguments are tiring, though I've never shifted from my default stance of suggesting to agree to disagree on pretty much any issue.

If that leads to me or anyone else living rent-free in the heads of those who feel compelled to wish death on someone over preferences in a video game? Meh.

[Absimiliard]

I honestly lost track of the number of times I was told to cease my own life functions back during the "not all Garleans deserve to die" debates. The same thing has happened over the current topic twice in just the last few days.

[Lauront]

I would note that more than a few members of the Venat Fedora-wearers Association have been going around making some nasty posts of their own. Again, if you're going to throw blame around, do so without being disingenuous. You continually attempt to imply this to be a problem that isn't multifaceted, but it very much is. A cursory glance through any of the topics that have been hijacked by either the aforementioned Venat Fedora-wearers Association or the Zodiark Neckbard Brigade will make this abundantly clear.

One doesn't need to think too far back to recall the anxiety some players had over the prospect of the Exarch dying... or any of the other Scions.

As for the Q&A threads, these are (should be) curated (and therefore moderated) by SE staff in the first instance. At the end of the day, this is a consumer product, and so feedback cannot simply be brushed aside. While I am all for writing feedback to the developers in terms that avoids various unpleasantries (death threats, name-calling and so on), if they choose to read this, certainly there is an element of thinking about whether they do it or have someone else do it for them. It's not uncommon in business to have to deal with direct customer feedback and it is far from unique to the creative industries to have some staff are of a particularly sensitive disposition, which is why there are ways to deal with that, such as having other staff, potentially less personally invested in the writing, to collate the feedback and extract themes from it.

To be honest, I don't go to official forums because I want to discuss stuff with other fans - obviously that does happen, but I'm not under any illusions about it being a productive thing to do. Busy online boards are actively hostile environments in regards to disagreeing in a healthy way; text doesn't carry tone and intent easily, and when there are so many people talking over each other, it becomes impossible to clarify oneself or establish a rapport.

I only come to an official forum when I feel strongly enough about something that I want those feelings to be carried to the creators (since there's no feedback email address, lol) in the hope that they'll respond in some way going forward. Creative people are generally most influenced by, rather than the simple majority, the people who are most passionate and willing to talk about their work, so long as that talking is in broadly good faith. I've loved large amounts of FFXIV's story, and that's what makes me want to clarify my feelings and the breadth of my discomfort with parts of EW in the hopes that maybe they'll get it where I'm coming from and change course a tiny bit.

Yoshi-P has spoken about how the writing team reads even the English feedback here in the past and that said feedback does influence their choices, so in book, it's good for these threads to stay active and create a better shot at them actually seeing it. Though honestly, people with an opposing opinions are basically bystanders in this context; I wish there was a way I could express my opinion in a manner the writers might see without the pretext of a debate, though I do respect most people with contrary opinions as individuals. As least as much as you can respect a faceless person who you only know through their perspective on RPG plot points.

I can't speak for everyone, though.

Well put.

[Theodric]

I honestly lost track of the number of times I was told to cease my own life functions back during the "not all Garleans deserve to die" debates. The same thing has happened over the current topic twice in just the last few days.

It's pretty weird, isn't it?

I don't know why some people can't separate the 'fantasy' from the 'reality' but it is what it is, I suppose. Final Fantasy XII is my favourite main title so the various Legatus having very similar attire to the Judges in FFXII is a major point in Garlemald's favour. The Roman and Russian influence is another huge point in their favour to me as well. There's a lot of influence across much of Europe where the Romans are concerned. Be it architectural designs, cultural trends and even preserved ruins. As for the Russians? I think they have a very interesting culture and history. I've met a fair few Russian players in game who are fond of Garlemald too, on that note.

[Lyth]

...

To be honest, I'm not even sure who your 'association', as you put it, is fighting against. Sure, there are people here who found Venat's character interesting on passing glance, but that's hardly surprising. I don't think there's a second 'faction' here. You're just shouting obscenities at assorted bystanders, and it's stifling discussion on other topics.

I'm not sure what happened in your conversations about the Garleans, nor does it sound like most of the people currently involved in these forums do either. I'm not really sure what the relevance to the current discussion is. It's worth noting that SE has a support center for addressing prohibited activities under the ToS, and it sounds like you should take up your issues there, rather than in this topic. Whatever it is, though, I don't think that it can be used as a justification for your collective behavior.

[KizuyaKatogami]

To be honest, I'm not even sure who your 'association', as you put it, is fighting against. Sure, there are people here who found Venat's character interesting on passing glance, but that's hardly surprising. I don't think there's a second 'faction' here. You're just shouting obscenities at assorted bystanders, and it's stifling discussion on other topics.

I'm not sure what happened in your conversations about the Garleans, nor does it sound like most of the people currently involved in these forums do either. I'm not really sure what the relevance to the current discussion is. It's worth noting that SE has a support center for addressing prohibited activities under the ToS, and it sounds like you should take up your issues there, rather than in this topic. Whatever it is, though, I don't think that it can be used as a justification for your collective behavior.

Based on your logic i can simply say there are no factions period then. Just people who find the ancients interesting at a “passing glance” and people who find venat interesting at a “passing glance.” What he’s saying has relevance because people thought it fit to derail this discussion by saying things like “ignore this poster” or “this is why we can’t have a good discussion etc etc.” What exactly do you mean by collective behavior by the way?I dont think theres anything stifling discussion more than trying to gatekeep specific posters from discussing things and being passive aggressive in said discussions.

[Theodric]

I'm inclined to suggest that nobody here needs the 'permission' of other forum goers in order to discuss certain topics relevant to the game's ongoing story. Even if the Ancients were to never be mentioned again, they're still a part of the established narrative and will be brought up in various relevant discussions.

The strange insistence on trying to force everyone into being on either 'Team Hydaelyn' or 'Team Zodiark' has always struck me as bizarre, too. Especially since it ignores the nuance that exists in a fair few of both the latter and the former being very much on board with some sort of 'third way forward'. Obviously that didn't happen but it hasn't been 'Team Zodiark' who has been wishing death upon them around these parts.

I also think it's very disingenuous for someone to downplay the existence of death threats and personal attacks when they, themselves, were quoted very recently as insulting the intelligence of other posters and openly fantasising about killing them.

I'm sure I'm not the only one who has recognised and pointed out the common trend of certain posters resorting to such tactics and then engaging in gaslighting and misdirection in an effort to pretend as if they, themselves, are the victim instead.

That some people can't see the difference between a fictional character being insulted and an actual person being harassed is not my concern. I certainly don't come here and post in order to seek 'approval' from individuals and cliques with an overly inflated opinion of themselves.

Not everybody is going to be everybody else's cup of tea and that's perfectly fine. Perhaps the efficient solution is for those who aren't fond of discussing the Ancients to simply...not participate in threads that involve discussing the Ancients.

[Lyth]

That's a very serious issue that there's zero tolerance for, and I think that it goes well beyond the scope of what can be addressed on these forums. I've flagged it to Square Enix support on your behalf, and hopefully they can help you out personally with it. Regards.

[EaraGrace]

To be honest, I don't go to official forums because I want to discuss stuff with other fans - obviously that does happen, but I'm not under any illusions about it being a productive thing to do. Busy online boards are actively hostile environments in regards to disagreeing in a healthy way; text doesn't carry tone and intent easily, and when there are so many people talking over each other, it becomes impossible to clarify oneself or establish a rapport.

I only come to an official forum when I feel strongly enough about something that I want those feelings to be carried to the creators (since there's no feedback email address, lol) in the hope that they'll respond in some way going forward. Creative people are generally most influenced by, rather than the simple majority, the people who are most passionate and willing to talk about their work, so long as that talking is in broadly good faith. I've loved large amounts of FFXIV's story, and that's what makes me want to clarify my feelings and the breadth of my discomfort with parts of EW in the hopes that maybe they'll get it where I'm coming from and change course a tiny bit.

Yoshi-P has spoken about how the writing team reads even the English feedback here in the past and that said feedback does influence their choices, so in book, it's good for these threads to stay active and create a better shot at them actually seeing it. Though honestly, people with an opposing opinions are basically bystanders in this context; I wish there was a way I could express my opinion in a manner the writers might see without the pretext of a debate, though I do respect most people with contrary opinions as individuals. As least as much as you can respect a faceless person who you only know through their perspective on RPG plot points.

I can't speak for everyone, though.

Then I suppose it best that I speak my mind then. I would not be a fan of some of the choices many here would have the writing team make, so let the circle remain unbroken.

I'm inclined to suggest that nobody here needs the 'permission' of other forum goers in order to discuss certain topics relevant to the game's ongoing story. Even if the Ancients were to never be mentioned again, they're still a part of the established narrative and will be brought up in various relevant discussions.

The strange insistence on trying to force everyone into being on either 'Team Hydaelyn' or 'Team Zodiark' has always struck me as bizarre, too. Especially since it ignores the nuance that exists in a fair few of both the latter and the former being very much on board with some sort of 'third way forward'. Obviously that didn't happen but it hasn't been 'Team Zodiark' who has been wishing death upon them around these parts.

I also think it's very disingenuous for someone to downplay the existence of death threats and personal attacks when they, themselves, were quoted very recently as insulting the intelligence of other posters and openly fantasising about killing them.

I'm sure I'm not the only one who has recognised and pointed out the common trend of certain posters resorting to such tactics and then engaging in gaslighting and misdirection in an effort to pretend as if they, themselves, are the victim instead.

That some people can't see the difference between a fictional character being insulted and an actual person being harassed is not my concern. I certainly don't come here and post in order to seek 'approval' from individuals and cliques with an overly inflated opinion of themselves.

Not everybody is going to be everybody else's cup of tea and that's perfectly fine. Perhaps the efficient solution is for those who aren't fond of discussing the Ancients to simply...not participate in threads that involve discussing the Ancients.

See I agree with most of this post, the issue however, as it inevitably was going to be, is who you think is doing the gaslighting or insulting. I know what my experience in the months that we’ve been having this discussion has been, but I imagine no few would disagree with where I find fault.